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So, government argues it needs broad spying powers for the "security" of the people, but many individuals in the government personally use tools they believe to

So, government argues it needs broad spying powers for the "security" of the people, but many individuals in the government personally use tools they believe to be beyond the government's reach. Since I don't anticipate the USA ever outlawing unbreakable crypto for use by private citizens or companies, does that mean eventually government can only spy on those citizens not savvy enough to use secured tech to communicate? I guess the flipside here is: how many of those officials using Signal have an Amazon Echo in their homes that's recording all their conversations?

adventured 10y ago
> how many of those officials using Signal have an Amazon Echo in their homes that's recording all their conversations? None is the correct answer.
andreyf 10y ago
Echo only records if you trigger it with the key phrase. Or do mean Echos that have been hacked?
- eecc 10y ago
  The copy on the package says it only records when triggered, by a key phrase. There's nothing that prevents it to record and process differently on other "key phrases", or on receipt of a remote command
  - andreyf 10y ago
    There's nothing to prevent your phone or laptop or smart TV / fire alarm / etc from doing so, either. Why single out Alexa?
abofh 10y ago
Sigh. I was with you right until the end. Of _course_ those in power believe themselves smart enough to avoid the rules they wrote - they want to be secure, and know the presence of very real threats both within and outside of the US. I'm not defending it - but you'd have to be extremely foolish to commit a crime from your @whitehouse.gov email address. You'd have to be equally foolish to commit any crime over email or unencrypted IM if you'd talked to a lawyer with half a braincell to rub against a rock. And the US /has/ banned unbreakable crypto - those 56 bit ciphers in old browsers? That was export law banning the export of 'weapons' to unfriendly states. While the law has been recinded, nothing has made it hard for congress (or even the executive) to change that. And lastly - Echo does NOT transmit to amazon when the light is off (perhaps unless compelled to by court order - but I leave paranoia to your imagination). Don't believe me? Disconnect your internet and ask for the time - it knows how to do a few very minimal things without the network -- No AWS transmission needed if your clock's in sync.
- tambourine_man 10y ago
  Not much imagination needed https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/27/amazon-echo-audio-data-murder-case/ https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/27/amazon-echo-audio-data-m...
- bitexploder 10y ago
  This view of the amazon Echo threat model is very narrow and credits a great deal of trust into Amazon and or how things "should" work. I won't go into the likelihood that what I am about to explain is an actual reality, but in practical terms a nation state actor like the NSA can backdoor the Echo. Just because a simple test (disconnecting) the network shows you one behavior means and tells you absolutely nothing about how it could be backdoored. It could be as exotic as a payload deep in the NIC firmware that merely requires the right packet to cross through it completely altering the behavior so it can silently listen. Anyone that can accomplish this much can make the device behave normally until they want it not to. And even then, it will APPEAR normal. It could also be as simple as code Amazon knows about and is compelled by a NSL to never reveal. So, paranoia or likelihood aside, using some cursory behavioral conclusion as an argument is weak at best. We can also talk about phones, laptops and so many other things and why the meme of the echo being /the/ spy device has gained mind share. Anyhow, for the truly paranoid even something like a modern mobile device is a bit of a non-starter.
  - Natsu 10y ago
    Based on the things Snowden leaked, they would backdoor the hardware before it ever reached your home. Or at the design level. A part of me strongly suspects that the Intel IME was dreamed up by the NSA and I'd be very surprised if they don't have a way to own it.
    - bitexploder 10y ago
      That would be my suspicion for a well funded nation state as well. The NSA dedicates a non-trivial amount of time to analyzing the chips they source and use in their infrastructure for backdoors. That is not a defensive only capability :)
anigbrowl 10y ago
I'm a little confused about what point you're trying to make what with all these kitchen sinks you've thrown in. Not everyone in the 'political world' works for the government, I'd think that includes members of the media and lobbyists and many others who have a relationship with government but aren't necessarily part of it.
mayneack 10y ago
> does that mean eventually government can only spy on those citizens not savvy enough to use secured tech to communicate? One of Signal's goals is to be proliferated in main stream applications (like Whatsapp) so hopefully those not savvy enough to use signal directly can benefit from the pressure that savvy users exert on Facebook and others to be reasonably confident in their crypto. Similarly, I've never personally verified that my version of Signal is the same as one that I could build from source, but I make the tradeoff that someone more paranoid than me would notice a widespread compromising of the app store.

adventured 10y ago

> how many of those officials using Signal have an Amazon Echo in their homes that's recording all their conversations? None is the correct answer.

andreyf 10y ago

Echo only records if you trigger it with the key phrase. Or do mean Echos that have been hacked?

eecc 10y ago
The copy on the package says it only records when triggered, by a key phrase. There's nothing that prevents it to record and process differently on other "key phrases", or on receipt of a remote command
- andreyf 10y ago
  There's nothing to prevent your phone or laptop or smart TV / fire alarm / etc from doing so, either. Why single out Alexa?

abofh 10y ago

Sigh. I was with you right until the end. Of _course_ those in power believe themselves smart enough to avoid the rules they wrote - they want to be secure, and know the presence of very real threats both within and outside of the US. I'm not defending it - but you'd have to be extremely foolish to commit a crime from your @whitehouse.gov email address. You'd have to be equally foolish to commit any crime over email or unencrypted IM if you'd talked to a lawyer with half a braincell to rub against a rock. And the US /has/ banned unbreakable crypto - those 56 bit ciphers in old browsers? That was export law banning the export of 'weapons' to unfriendly states. While the law has been recinded, nothing has made it hard for congress (or even the executive) to change that. And lastly - Echo does NOT transmit to amazon when the light is off (perhaps unless compelled to by court order - but I leave paranoia to your imagination). Don't believe me? Disconnect your internet and ask for the time - it knows how to do a few very minimal things without the network -- No AWS transmission needed if your clock's in sync.

tambourine_man 10y ago
Not much imagination needed https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/27/amazon-echo-audio-data-murder-case/ https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/27/amazon-echo-audio-data-m...
bitexploder 10y ago
This view of the amazon Echo threat model is very narrow and credits a great deal of trust into Amazon and or how things "should" work. I won't go into the likelihood that what I am about to explain is an actual reality, but in practical terms a nation state actor like the NSA can backdoor the Echo. Just because a simple test (disconnecting) the network shows you one behavior means and tells you absolutely nothing about how it could be backdoored. It could be as exotic as a payload deep in the NIC firmware that merely requires the right packet to cross through it completely altering the behavior so it can silently listen. Anyone that can accomplish this much can make the device behave normally until they want it not to. And even then, it will APPEAR normal. It could also be as simple as code Amazon knows about and is compelled by a NSL to never reveal. So, paranoia or likelihood aside, using some cursory behavioral conclusion as an argument is weak at best. We can also talk about phones, laptops and so many other things and why the meme of the echo being /the/ spy device has gained mind share. Anyhow, for the truly paranoid even something like a modern mobile device is a bit of a non-starter.
- Natsu 10y ago
  Based on the things Snowden leaked, they would backdoor the hardware before it ever reached your home. Or at the design level. A part of me strongly suspects that the Intel IME was dreamed up by the NSA and I'd be very surprised if they don't have a way to own it.
  - bitexploder 10y ago
    That would be my suspicion for a well funded nation state as well. The NSA dedicates a non-trivial amount of time to analyzing the chips they source and use in their infrastructure for backdoors. That is not a defensive only capability :)

anigbrowl 10y ago

I'm a little confused about what point you're trying to make what with all these kitchen sinks you've thrown in. Not everyone in the 'political world' works for the government, I'd think that includes members of the media and lobbyists and many others who have a relationship with government but aren't necessarily part of it.

mayneack 10y ago

> does that mean eventually government can only spy on those citizens not savvy enough to use secured tech to communicate? One of Signal's goals is to be proliferated in main stream applications (like Whatsapp) so hopefully those not savvy enough to use signal directly can benefit from the pressure that savvy users exert on Facebook and others to be reasonably confident in their crypto. Similarly, I've never personally verified that my version of Signal is the same as one that I could build from source, but I make the tradeoff that someone more paranoid than me would notice a widespread compromising of the app store.