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As soon as somebody invokes "values" , I know we're done. They're mostly irrelevant. They're mostly post-hoc rationalizations. They are just-so stories. They a

As soon as somebody invokes "values" , I know we're done. They're mostly irrelevant. They're mostly post-hoc rationalizations. They are just-so stories. They are given the role of axioms in supposed geometries of governance, and it simply doesn't work. Culture is what matters. Culture isn't necessarily conscious. It's emergent. And the mechanisms for enforcing and controlling culture are just messy. It, effectively, cannot be changed. A culture has to play itself out. This is why new firms are important.

qznc 10y ago
I recently read a blog post [0] about self improvement, which describes a cycle of goals-processes-values. An example of values is the Agile manifesto, which says "individuals and interactions over processes and tools". [0] http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2014/09/03/how-to-fall-off-the-wagon/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2014/09/03/how-to-fall-off-the-wag...
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  I believe that that is a positive - don't get me wrong. And values in technology are easier to come by than general values.
marcosdumay 10y ago
A group can work towards changing their culture to fit a set of values. That's something that happens, so the concept of "value" isn't worthless. That said, I've never seen it happen in a corporation context. So, yes, I do agree with your point, it's just worded in a more radical way than I'm ok with.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  I appreciate the feedback. It does come off as grumpy reading it again. It's really weariness. I did mean it, more or less, in a corporate context. I do believe that values are sort of inscrutable and very hard to wrestle with. And I feel the term is threadbare these days.
  - muratk 10y ago
    Hm, thanks for your thoughts, ArkyBeagle—we're currently figuring out the whole values thing, so these perspectives are really helpful. “very hard to wrestle with” is hitting the nail on the head. I do believe values can be purposeful to the journey of a company. To my mind, there are two kinds of values: the ones that build your current behavior, and the ones that build the behavior you want. The first I think is the emergent culture that you describe. In another comment you mention that it's hard to introspect to find values, and I agree. But by watching your culture (how everyone behaves), it's not impossible. These observations have helped us as a company to identify things that we like about our culture, and what we would like to see changed over time. These values you have, regardless of whether you write them down or not, whether you communicate them or not. On a side-note: For me as a flawed person these observations have been tremendously helpful. For example, I noticed how I myself inadvertently help create a culture I really don't want by apparently making a very serious impression when focused on a task. That wasn't a problem before as far as I know (well…), but is now. Knowing, I can change my behavior, and mid-term our culture. :) The second sort of values, the ones you want, I think are the ones described by marcosdumay. These are the values you want to be the future foundation of your behavior. I've seen cultures changing, so I want to believe it's possible to change our culture towards a desired state. The thing about writing those values down is that you then can start measuring yourself against them. And a goal state is essential for improving anything. “I cannot understand myself”, maybe, but without something to compare yourself against, a contrast, an ideal, I'm not making much of an effort, either. :) Thank you for handling public feedback gracefully.
jstepka 10y ago
Culture is heavily defined by the values of the group and how they communicate.
pimlottc 10y ago
I'm kind of confused by your comment. What's the difference between talking about values and talking about culture?
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  Values are sort of like the natural numbers. The other stuff in culture - that is subconscious, is related to dominance/status/ability to set priority is like the real numbers. There's an overwhelming disparity in quantity. and I don't believe people can introspect sufficiently to TRULY discover their values. But part of the problem is how they're presented in certain media - as if they were just things people choose to adopt. "I value family" is code for all sort of odious behavior. "I value fairness" alike ( trying to be.. balanced/bipartisan there ). In truth, they're working abstractions, but when people start giving them an operating place in the construction of governance, it can be a real problem. As goes the koan - "I cannot understand myself."
  - muratk 10y ago
    > when people start giving them an operating place in the construction of governance, it can be a real problem What do you mean by this? If you use them as guidelines for establishing processes and encouraging/discouraging behavior?
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      It's just difficult, and making the wrong mistake can create problems. Suppose we say transparency is a value. Well, it's extremely easy to have too much transparency. Suppose it is collaboration. Then you can easily run into costly processes that serve no purpose in value. I've seen "values competitions" before in organizations, where an escalation of commitment to them sort of generates a positive feedback loop.

qznc 10y ago

I recently read a blog post [0] about self improvement, which describes a cycle of goals-processes-values. An example of values is the Agile manifesto, which says "individuals and interactions over processes and tools". [0] http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2014/09/03/how-to-fall-off-the-wagon/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2014/09/03/how-to-fall-off-the-wag...

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
I believe that that is a positive - don't get me wrong. And values in technology are easier to come by than general values.

marcosdumay 10y ago

A group can work towards changing their culture to fit a set of values. That's something that happens, so the concept of "value" isn't worthless. That said, I've never seen it happen in a corporation context. So, yes, I do agree with your point, it's just worded in a more radical way than I'm ok with.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
I appreciate the feedback. It does come off as grumpy reading it again. It's really weariness. I did mean it, more or less, in a corporate context. I do believe that values are sort of inscrutable and very hard to wrestle with. And I feel the term is threadbare these days.
- muratk 10y ago
  Hm, thanks for your thoughts, ArkyBeagle—we're currently figuring out the whole values thing, so these perspectives are really helpful. “very hard to wrestle with” is hitting the nail on the head. I do believe values can be purposeful to the journey of a company. To my mind, there are two kinds of values: the ones that build your current behavior, and the ones that build the behavior you want. The first I think is the emergent culture that you describe. In another comment you mention that it's hard to introspect to find values, and I agree. But by watching your culture (how everyone behaves), it's not impossible. These observations have helped us as a company to identify things that we like about our culture, and what we would like to see changed over time. These values you have, regardless of whether you write them down or not, whether you communicate them or not. On a side-note: For me as a flawed person these observations have been tremendously helpful. For example, I noticed how I myself inadvertently help create a culture I really don't want by apparently making a very serious impression when focused on a task. That wasn't a problem before as far as I know (well…), but is now. Knowing, I can change my behavior, and mid-term our culture. :) The second sort of values, the ones you want, I think are the ones described by marcosdumay. These are the values you want to be the future foundation of your behavior. I've seen cultures changing, so I want to believe it's possible to change our culture towards a desired state. The thing about writing those values down is that you then can start measuring yourself against them. And a goal state is essential for improving anything. “I cannot understand myself”, maybe, but without something to compare yourself against, a contrast, an ideal, I'm not making much of an effort, either. :) Thank you for handling public feedback gracefully.

jstepka 10y ago

Culture is heavily defined by the values of the group and how they communicate.

pimlottc 10y ago

I'm kind of confused by your comment. What's the difference between talking about values and talking about culture?

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
Values are sort of like the natural numbers. The other stuff in culture - that is subconscious, is related to dominance/status/ability to set priority is like the real numbers. There's an overwhelming disparity in quantity. and I don't believe people can introspect sufficiently to TRULY discover their values. But part of the problem is how they're presented in certain media - as if they were just things people choose to adopt. "I value family" is code for all sort of odious behavior. "I value fairness" alike ( trying to be.. balanced/bipartisan there ). In truth, they're working abstractions, but when people start giving them an operating place in the construction of governance, it can be a real problem. As goes the koan - "I cannot understand myself."
- muratk 10y ago
  > when people start giving them an operating place in the construction of governance, it can be a real problem What do you mean by this? If you use them as guidelines for establishing processes and encouraging/discouraging behavior?
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    It's just difficult, and making the wrong mistake can create problems. Suppose we say transparency is a value. Well, it's extremely easy to have too much transparency. Suppose it is collaboration. Then you can easily run into costly processes that serve no purpose in value. I've seen "values competitions" before in organizations, where an escalation of commitment to them sort of generates a positive feedback loop.