11 ms·

What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

92 points by chethiya 10y ago

kyleschiller 10y ago
Chinese students are products of an educational system that, for all of its high achievers, is built to suppress intellectual curiosity, creativity and individuality – the very qualities that American admissions officers value most. Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. The fairly well documented[0][1][2] truth here is that American universities are using qualities like "leadership" to justify what is really a quota on Asian students. I totally understand that none of the evidence is conclusive, but the fact that this is happening to Asian American students, who for the most part never go through the Chinese educational system this particular article blames, should at least cast a good amount of doubt on their claim. [0] http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-harberson-asian-american-admission-rates-20150609-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-harberson-asian-a... [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-organizations-seek-federal-probe-of-harvard-admission-policies-1431719348 http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-organizations-see... [2] https://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians https://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-...
- qntty 10y ago
  There's a big difference between the discrimination against Asian-American students (which does happen) and discrimination against students from Asia. For one, public universities exist mostly to educate people from the state they are based, and can justify discriminating against people outside the state and even more against people who don't live in states which exchange students with that state (i.e. people outside the country). Private universities can also say that one of their main purposes is to educate the population of the countries that they are based in. None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination.
  - Naritai 10y ago
    But if that (educating their own country's people) were their goal (leaving aside, for the moment, whether we agree on the validity of that goal), it would be much better if they just said so, rather than relying on a stereotype-driven narrative instead.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      I believe they rather educate (and select applicants) based on the values of the country where the university is located. So they don't discriminate actively against Chinese applicants, but against some of the values that the Chinese education system imparts.
  - BeetleB 10y ago
    >None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination. I keep hearing this (primarily from Asian Americans who feel they didn't get into their preferred top N school), and yet they never provide evidence to support it. They give me reason and logic, but no evidence. It is trivially easy to find counterexamples to all their reason.
    - Naritai 10y ago
      Did you look at the 3 links provided above? To quote from [3]: "They find that being Asian is the equivalent of a 140 point score penalty on your SAT when applying to top private universities. For example, a white student that scored 1360 on the SATs would be on equal footing with an Asian student that scored 1500."
      - willhslade 10y ago
        Asking for a friend: how do they penalize half Asians?
        Naritai 10y ago
- crispyambulance 10y ago
  Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or lawyer.
  - munin 10y ago
    > and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?
    - 6stringmerc 10y ago
      To get an education to facilitate a "good" job, pay my own bills, make my own decisions about free time, friendships and activities, and, most of all, not have to live with my parents. Granted, I'd had tastes of all of these growing up in a well rounded home life, but those were the values instilled in me. How I chose to get there was up to me.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.
      - oblio 10y ago
        You must be either rich or have a very frugal, possibly isolated lifestyle. Most people don't fit either of those categories.
        EliRivers 10y ago
        I didn't say I don't have a job. I said I don't want one. It turns out that I don't want to be living rough on the streets to a greater degree than I don't want a job.
- inimino 10y ago
  > Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. They absolutely are. As someone who has been involved in this process, this is without question the biggest challenge for Chinese students to apply to top schools. They simply do not have the individuality and intellectual curiosity that US universities want. The reason is because having those qualities is totally incompatible with high achievement in the Chinese educational system up through high school. The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought or they completely repressed that tendency at an early age.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought What you call "critical thought" is what I would rather call "'critical' thought in what is the currently an opportune fashion". I know lots of people who have critical thoughts, but not in the sense of what admission panels like to see as "critical thought".
    - inimino 10y ago
      I mean they can't challenge an idea that is given, because they have no practice doing it. The students that challenge authority, even privately, don't have an easy time in that system.
nraynaud 10y ago
They forgot to mention the SEVIS record madness (want to know what the muslim registry will look like?), I20, being heckled or killed in the streets and casual border crossing racism by the CBP.
- dominotw 10y ago
  > being heckled or killed in the streets huh? >casual border crossing racism by the CBP. I had an "immigration office" tell me "you will be kicked out like dogs if these documents don't verify". My dad swore off visiting me in America due to his similar experience, I don't blame him. What decent person would put up with this, why do they do this?
  - defen 10y ago
    >> being heckled or killed in the streets > huh? There were a couple (at least 2, maybe 3) of high-profile murders of Chinese grad students at UCLA within the past couple of years, which is my guess about what OP is referring to. The victims were targeted for their perceived wealth and/or foreignness.
    - nraynaud 10y ago
      and one at ASU last year.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  I'm very confused by your post. I know what SEVIS is and have personally experienced a LOT of problems with CBP, and agree that racism is part of the organisation's core. But the "hackled or killed in the streets." What does that refer to?
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > being heckled or killed Not being a native English speaker, I had to look up the meaning of "to heckle". Before I looked it up, in the context with "killed" I thought it would be a cynic derivation from "Heckler & Koch" (a gun manufacturer), just as "to hoover" (in British English), "to taser" or "to google". :-)
douche 10y ago
Cynically, I imagine it's a similar process to what many American students go through to get into top American universities. Step 1: Win the sperm lottery Step 2: Get Daddy or Mommy to write a big-ass check to build some building on campus. Step 3: Don't screw up completely. Step 4: Profit!
- mentaiko 10y ago
  In high stakes games like college admissions, the pressure to win drives many people to commit fraud. I am skeptical that Chinese parents are committing fraud in greater numbers than American parents- it's just easier for admissions officers to filter and check the Chinese applicants (via interview to check the validity of the TOEFL score, as described in the article). It would be interesting to read about what all parents do, instead of joining the popular parade of articles dehumanizing the Chinese.
  - hueving 10y ago
    >instead of joining the popular parade of articles dehumanizing the Chinese. Did you read TFA? The entire thing is written from the perspective of individuals and their struggle.
    - mentaiko 10y ago
      In fact I did. It is possible we had different interpretations. The article highlighted a young woman's journey while pounding out the general "otherness" of the Chinese, and without any reflection on the parallels that occur everywhere. It's another to add to the pile.
- logicchains 10y ago
  Username checks out.
  - douche 10y ago
    People just love the nuclear down-vote-everything-you've-said-that-they-can option these days.
titomc 10y ago
Part deux: What Asian students go through once they get their degrees from American Universities. They go down the rabbit hole of America's broken immigration system, starting with OPT visa, then H1B (read lottery luck, not based on skills) & then the country based quota for green card currently 7 to 9 years for EB2 categories for India & China. Did I forgot to mention the exorbitant out of state tuition fees and the loans they took for it in their home country ?
- wolfgke 10y ago
  The students characterized in this article come from rather prosperous families.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- xyzzy4 10y ago
  You don't have to pay back loans if you don't return to your home country.
  - Flammy 10y ago
    The lenders are not idiots. I'm very sure they either are signed by their families or they have other ways of enforcing collection.
    - xyzzy4 10y ago
      A lot of lenders are idiots. My evidence is the 2008 subprime lending crisis.
      - titomc 10y ago
        2008 subprime lending crisis happened only in America. Lets think outside of America for this one. Lenders outside America are not idiots. Most of them lend on a solid collateral and someone from the family will have to have co-sign the loan, especially if its a huge sum.
6stringmerc 10y ago
Tangential Asian-National Students in US University Anecdote Time: I attended a rather prestigious Graduate School program in the Liberal Arts at a state school. Education specifically. Campus population in the tens of thousands. In some classes, I actually felt like part of a minority. There were consistently large populations Asian nationals in the field. Many nationalities, mind you, such as South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, and maybe one or two others. Teachers in their home country, they were attending to get the US Masters/PhD with every intention of returning home and getting a raise. Yes, they did participate well in the learning environment, language issues aside, but more than one got homesick and would quit the program due to culture shock of living in the US for 2+ years. I can sympathize. My takeaway was that the University was very happy to take the (presumably) higher tuition from foreign students primarily interested in the Degree for status advancement than turn them away. It could help keep a department going in a way, and, in turn, the University didn't worry that these graduates were going to stick around and try to get US jobs on those degrees. It kind of wasn't the bargain. It is worth noting, I think, that most of the Asian national students in my program or field were in their 30s or 40s. They had life experience, families, professional careers...I guess the point of the reflection is the University got a good revenue stream and the Graduates got their Degree for status back home. Win-win? Ehhhh...
lordnacho 10y ago
Regarding the children of famous/important people, perhaps someone can shed some light. How exactly do you specify on your application who your parents are? I remember the process at Oxford, there wasn't really a way to say "oh btw my dad is a rock star" other than the personal statement. And it's hardly going to impress the person who's interviewing you to blurt out something like that, because all the questions are technical.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  It depends a lot on the degree and type of importance. If your dad is Mick Jagger, the last name will probably suffice. Less facetiously, there are still Roosevelts and Cabbotts and Coolidges out there and those names do carry weight in some places. I imagine there are some names which would go pretty far at Oxford too. If your parents are more self-made (or the last name doesn't reflect the lineage), the personal statement can absolutely cover this. "Growing up in the shadow of my family" is partly about personal development, but partly a way to say "check out my family". Honestly, though? In the US, this gets handled via side channels. Our applications have a space for 'legacy status', where you list past attendees in your family. Anything counts, but rich and famous alumni are especially good. And if your family is important enough, they'll probably have talked to the school completely independent of your application. Likely, they'll have started years before you applied. I know several people from top US colleges who have a story about meeting some strangely unqualified classmate, and then discovering that they shared a name with some building on campus. At the very top end, there's certainly room to pave the way with donations and personal friendships.
- csa 10y ago
  In the US, there are at least three ways this is handled: 1. Parents are known. Think Chelsea Clinton. 2. Parents are known social elites within the school's geographic circle. Usually trustees will get involved, sometimes writing recommendations. 3. If parents are elites outside of the school social circle, this is often handled by folks on the local/regional admissions boards (the ones applicants interview with). They can provide a lot of insight in this area.
- caminante 10y ago
cik2e 10y ago
My statistics graduate program was about 2/3 Chinese with very poor English skills. This lead to complete self-segregation and a horrible TA experience for undergrads they were assigned to. To boot, cheating in this group was rampant.
- kyukyukyufan 10y ago
  True. I can relate.
Balgair 10y ago
Christ almighty, I wish I could share the actual source, but I can't find it. There was a study a decade(?) ago that took a look at 'Top Schools' and instead of looking at the best students, they took a look at the worst students. They took out the legacy children, the athletes, etc, and only looked at the kids that got in on their 'merits'. Typically, the schools will have a ranking system that combines GPA, ACT, SAT, etc. The researchers (out of Michigan, maybe?) then looked at the bottom people in that ranking order that accepted into the schools. I read the popular press article about it (Wired?) where they focused on a kid from Arizona that got into Stanford. He was super passionate about this park near his house that he hiked in. His grades and whatnot were average at best. When budget cuts closed the park, the guy fundraised and solicited the state house until the park re-opened. He applied to Stanford on a lark, and got in mostly based on the essay about the park closure. The researchers concluded that the 'bottom' kids that got into super elite schools were are very unique, but similar in one way: They were super passionate about one specific thing. These kids were really spiky, not well-rounded. Effectively, Stanford et al. were actually asking the kids to come to their schools. These kids really didn't need the schools to begin with, they were going to continue doing their thing anyways. But those schools wanted those kids because of that passion. So maybe then we should be trying to go for that approach when it comes to education for our children. Maybe we should be trying to make them super passionate about one specific thing and not trying to be well rounded; a 'T' shaped mind where they have a little bit of know-how about a lot of stuff and a lot of know-how about one thing instead of a '---' shaped mind where they know a little bit about a whole ton of things. If anyone knows where the original paper is, PLEASE link it!
- wolfgke 10y ago
  Only because there exist a few kids who are very passionate about a specific thing and thus admitted to a top school this does not imply, that the "typical" kid with this property will be admitted. I would rather conjecture that many well-rounded pupils will get admitted plus a few (but not more) "special characters". Thus it would be a bad strategy if you want to go to Stanford to become passionate in only one thing.
  - Balgair 10y ago

92 points by chethiya 10y ago

Chinese students are products of an educational system that, for all of its high achievers, is built to suppress intellectual curiosity, creativity and individuality – the very qualities that American admissions officers value most. Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. The fairly well documented[0][1][2] truth here is that American universities are using qualities like "leadership" to justify what is really a quota on Asian students. I totally understand that none of the evidence is conclusive, but the fact that this is happening to Asian American students, who for the most part never go through the Chinese educational system this particular article blames, should at least cast a good amount of doubt on their claim. [0] http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-harberson-asian-american-admission-rates-20150609-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-harberson-asian-a... [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-organizations-seek-federal-probe-of-harvard-admission-policies-1431719348 http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-organizations-see... [2] https://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians https://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-...

qntty 10y ago
There's a big difference between the discrimination against Asian-American students (which does happen) and discrimination against students from Asia. For one, public universities exist mostly to educate people from the state they are based, and can justify discriminating against people outside the state and even more against people who don't live in states which exchange students with that state (i.e. people outside the country). Private universities can also say that one of their main purposes is to educate the population of the countries that they are based in. None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination.
- Naritai 10y ago
  But if that (educating their own country's people) were their goal (leaving aside, for the moment, whether we agree on the validity of that goal), it would be much better if they just said so, rather than relying on a stereotype-driven narrative instead.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    I believe they rather educate (and select applicants) based on the values of the country where the university is located. So they don't discriminate actively against Chinese applicants, but against some of the values that the Chinese education system imparts.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  >None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination. I keep hearing this (primarily from Asian Americans who feel they didn't get into their preferred top N school), and yet they never provide evidence to support it. They give me reason and logic, but no evidence. It is trivially easy to find counterexamples to all their reason.
  - Naritai 10y ago
    Did you look at the 3 links provided above? To quote from [3]: "They find that being Asian is the equivalent of a 140 point score penalty on your SAT when applying to top private universities. For example, a white student that scored 1360 on the SATs would be on equal footing with an Asian student that scored 1500."
    - willhslade 10y ago
      Asking for a friend: how do they penalize half Asians?
      - Naritai 10y ago
crispyambulance 10y ago
Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or lawyer.
- munin 10y ago
  > and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?
  - 6stringmerc 10y ago
    To get an education to facilitate a "good" job, pay my own bills, make my own decisions about free time, friendships and activities, and, most of all, not have to live with my parents. Granted, I'd had tastes of all of these growing up in a well rounded home life, but those were the values instilled in me. How I chose to get there was up to me.
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    I had a real, authentic interest in my chosen degree subject. I really, genuinely wanted to know all about it. I didn't ever want a job (and I still don't want one). I really, authentically wanted to be good at it for no other purpose than the pleasure of being able to fluidly understand it and play with it.
    - oblio 10y ago
      You must be either rich or have a very frugal, possibly isolated lifestyle. Most people don't fit either of those categories.
      - EliRivers 10y ago
        I didn't say I don't have a job. I said I don't want one. It turns out that I don't want to be living rough on the streets to a greater degree than I don't want a job.
inimino 10y ago
> Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. They absolutely are. As someone who has been involved in this process, this is without question the biggest challenge for Chinese students to apply to top schools. They simply do not have the individuality and intellectual curiosity that US universities want. The reason is because having those qualities is totally incompatible with high achievement in the Chinese educational system up through high school. The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought or they completely repressed that tendency at an early age.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > The high scoring Chinese students were either never interested in critical thought What you call "critical thought" is what I would rather call "'critical' thought in what is the currently an opportune fashion". I know lots of people who have critical thoughts, but not in the sense of what admission panels like to see as "critical thought".
  - inimino 10y ago
    I mean they can't challenge an idea that is given, because they have no practice doing it. The students that challenge authority, even privately, don't have an easy time in that system.

nraynaud 10y ago

They forgot to mention the SEVIS record madness (want to know what the muslim registry will look like?), I20, being heckled or killed in the streets and casual border crossing racism by the CBP.

dominotw 10y ago
> being heckled or killed in the streets huh? >casual border crossing racism by the CBP. I had an "immigration office" tell me "you will be kicked out like dogs if these documents don't verify". My dad swore off visiting me in America due to his similar experience, I don't blame him. What decent person would put up with this, why do they do this?
- defen 10y ago
  >> being heckled or killed in the streets > huh? There were a couple (at least 2, maybe 3) of high-profile murders of Chinese grad students at UCLA within the past couple of years, which is my guess about what OP is referring to. The victims were targeted for their perceived wealth and/or foreignness.
  - nraynaud 10y ago
    and one at ASU last year.
Someone1234 10y ago
I'm very confused by your post. I know what SEVIS is and have personally experienced a LOT of problems with CBP, and agree that racism is part of the organisation's core. But the "hackled or killed in the streets." What does that refer to?
wolfgke 10y ago
> being heckled or killed Not being a native English speaker, I had to look up the meaning of "to heckle". Before I looked it up, in the context with "killed" I thought it would be a cynic derivation from "Heckler & Koch" (a gun manufacturer), just as "to hoover" (in British English), "to taser" or "to google". :-)

douche 10y ago

Cynically, I imagine it's a similar process to what many American students go through to get into top American universities. Step 1: Win the sperm lottery Step 2: Get Daddy or Mommy to write a big-ass check to build some building on campus. Step 3: Don't screw up completely. Step 4: Profit!

mentaiko 10y ago
In high stakes games like college admissions, the pressure to win drives many people to commit fraud. I am skeptical that Chinese parents are committing fraud in greater numbers than American parents- it's just easier for admissions officers to filter and check the Chinese applicants (via interview to check the validity of the TOEFL score, as described in the article). It would be interesting to read about what all parents do, instead of joining the popular parade of articles dehumanizing the Chinese.
- hueving 10y ago
  >instead of joining the popular parade of articles dehumanizing the Chinese. Did you read TFA? The entire thing is written from the perspective of individuals and their struggle.
  - mentaiko 10y ago
    In fact I did. It is possible we had different interpretations. The article highlighted a young woman's journey while pounding out the general "otherness" of the Chinese, and without any reflection on the parallels that occur everywhere. It's another to add to the pile.
logicchains 10y ago
Username checks out.
- douche 10y ago
  People just love the nuclear down-vote-everything-you've-said-that-they-can option these days.

titomc 10y ago

Part deux: What Asian students go through once they get their degrees from American Universities. They go down the rabbit hole of America's broken immigration system, starting with OPT visa, then H1B (read lottery luck, not based on skills) & then the country based quota for green card currently 7 to 9 years for EB2 categories for India & China. Did I forgot to mention the exorbitant out of state tuition fees and the loans they took for it in their home country ?

wolfgke 10y ago
The students characterized in this article come from rather prosperous families.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
xyzzy4 10y ago
You don't have to pay back loans if you don't return to your home country.
- Flammy 10y ago
  The lenders are not idiots. I'm very sure they either are signed by their families or they have other ways of enforcing collection.
  - xyzzy4 10y ago
    A lot of lenders are idiots. My evidence is the 2008 subprime lending crisis.
    - titomc 10y ago
      2008 subprime lending crisis happened only in America. Lets think outside of America for this one. Lenders outside America are not idiots. Most of them lend on a solid collateral and someone from the family will have to have co-sign the loan, especially if its a huge sum.

6stringmerc 10y ago

Tangential Asian-National Students in US University Anecdote Time: I attended a rather prestigious Graduate School program in the Liberal Arts at a state school. Education specifically. Campus population in the tens of thousands. In some classes, I actually felt like part of a minority. There were consistently large populations Asian nationals in the field. Many nationalities, mind you, such as South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, and maybe one or two others. Teachers in their home country, they were attending to get the US Masters/PhD with every intention of returning home and getting a raise. Yes, they did participate well in the learning environment, language issues aside, but more than one got homesick and would quit the program due to culture shock of living in the US for 2+ years. I can sympathize. My takeaway was that the University was very happy to take the (presumably) higher tuition from foreign students primarily interested in the Degree for status advancement than turn them away. It could help keep a department going in a way, and, in turn, the University didn't worry that these graduates were going to stick around and try to get US jobs on those degrees. It kind of wasn't the bargain. It is worth noting, I think, that most of the Asian national students in my program or field were in their 30s or 40s. They had life experience, families, professional careers...I guess the point of the reflection is the University got a good revenue stream and the Graduates got their Degree for status back home. Win-win? Ehhhh...

lordnacho 10y ago

Regarding the children of famous/important people, perhaps someone can shed some light. How exactly do you specify on your application who your parents are? I remember the process at Oxford, there wasn't really a way to say "oh btw my dad is a rock star" other than the personal statement. And it's hardly going to impress the person who's interviewing you to blurt out something like that, because all the questions are technical.

Bartweiss 10y ago
It depends a lot on the degree and type of importance. If your dad is Mick Jagger, the last name will probably suffice. Less facetiously, there are still Roosevelts and Cabbotts and Coolidges out there and those names do carry weight in some places. I imagine there are some names which would go pretty far at Oxford too. If your parents are more self-made (or the last name doesn't reflect the lineage), the personal statement can absolutely cover this. "Growing up in the shadow of my family" is partly about personal development, but partly a way to say "check out my family". Honestly, though? In the US, this gets handled via side channels. Our applications have a space for 'legacy status', where you list past attendees in your family. Anything counts, but rich and famous alumni are especially good. And if your family is important enough, they'll probably have talked to the school completely independent of your application. Likely, they'll have started years before you applied. I know several people from top US colleges who have a story about meeting some strangely unqualified classmate, and then discovering that they shared a name with some building on campus. At the very top end, there's certainly room to pave the way with donations and personal friendships.
csa 10y ago
In the US, there are at least three ways this is handled: 1. Parents are known. Think Chelsea Clinton. 2. Parents are known social elites within the school's geographic circle. Usually trustees will get involved, sometimes writing recommendations. 3. If parents are elites outside of the school social circle, this is often handled by folks on the local/regional admissions boards (the ones applicants interview with). They can provide a lot of insight in this area.
caminante 10y ago

cik2e 10y ago

My statistics graduate program was about 2/3 Chinese with very poor English skills. This lead to complete self-segregation and a horrible TA experience for undergrads they were assigned to. To boot, cheating in this group was rampant.

kyukyukyufan 10y ago
True. I can relate.

Balgair 10y ago

Christ almighty, I wish I could share the actual source, but I can't find it. There was a study a decade(?) ago that took a look at 'Top Schools' and instead of looking at the best students, they took a look at the worst students. They took out the legacy children, the athletes, etc, and only looked at the kids that got in on their 'merits'. Typically, the schools will have a ranking system that combines GPA, ACT, SAT, etc. The researchers (out of Michigan, maybe?) then looked at the bottom people in that ranking order that accepted into the schools. I read the popular press article about it (Wired?) where they focused on a kid from Arizona that got into Stanford. He was super passionate about this park near his house that he hiked in. His grades and whatnot were average at best. When budget cuts closed the park, the guy fundraised and solicited the state house until the park re-opened. He applied to Stanford on a lark, and got in mostly based on the essay about the park closure. The researchers concluded that the 'bottom' kids that got into super elite schools were are very unique, but similar in one way: They were super passionate about one specific thing. These kids were really spiky, not well-rounded. Effectively, Stanford et al. were actually asking the kids to come to their schools. These kids really didn't need the schools to begin with, they were going to continue doing their thing anyways. But those schools wanted those kids because of that passion. So maybe then we should be trying to go for that approach when it comes to education for our children. Maybe we should be trying to make them super passionate about one specific thing and not trying to be well rounded; a 'T' shaped mind where they have a little bit of know-how about a lot of stuff and a lot of know-how about one thing instead of a '---' shaped mind where they know a little bit about a whole ton of things. If anyone knows where the original paper is, PLEASE link it!

wolfgke 10y ago
Only because there exist a few kids who are very passionate about a specific thing and thus admitted to a top school this does not imply, that the "typical" kid with this property will be admitted. I would rather conjecture that many well-rounded pupils will get admitted plus a few (but not more) "special characters". Thus it would be a bad strategy if you want to go to Stanford to become passionate in only one thing.
- Balgair 10y ago