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Sad but not surprising. Looking at the Turkish society overall it seems to be a regression to the mean. Even Gülen - the new designated enemy, former best frien

by lolc 10y ago

Sad but not surprising. Looking at the Turkish society overall it seems to be a regression to the mean. Even Gülen - the new designated enemy, former best friend of the AKP regime - had a book written about how wrong evolution is. And that guy is is a champion of education. Turkish civil society unfortunately never got strong enough to counter these cranks. Always torn apart by militarists, communists, and now islamists again. edit: oops forgot to mention the ethnic nationalists, they deserve special mention, fuckers.

Apocryphon 10y ago
Which one's the Kemalists?
- lolc 10y ago
  militarist/nationalist If they could've gotten over the whole ethnic thing, things might look a lot better now.
Udo 10y ago
I have to give it to the militarists though: they were certainly secular. When the long-overdue recent military coup failed (or didn't happen, depending on who you ask), it seems to me the flood walls just collapsed irreversibly. Fundamentalist faith is on the rise worldwide, and Turkey has especially been under attack from within and without for all of its history. The country just feels lost at this point. It wasn't so long ago, Turkey was considered an important ally of the EU, on track to become a member state. Being German myself, we used to have a special relationship with that country. People forget nowadays that there are so many originally-Turkish people in Germany now because at one point the influx of Turkish workers was a welcome addition to the German economy. I often wonder about the parents of an ex-girlfriend, who after working their asses off in Germany for their entire lives, moved back to Turkey for retirement - for much the same reasons pensioners in the US move to Florida. They were a friendly, modern, secular couple. I wonder what situation they find themselves in now.
- api 10y ago
  I wish secularists would do a little more soul searching on the question of why fundamentalism is on the rise at all. Personally I think it's pretty simple: fundamentalism offers a sense of community and belonging. In the age of loneliness that's pretty compelling. Secularism offers knowledge and information but nothing human -- no community, no identity, no sense of place or culture. (I can't remember where I first heard "age of loneliness" but I think it's accurate.)
  - Udo 10y ago
    > fundamentalism offers a sense of community and belonging That's certainly an interesting point. I must admit I struggle a bit with understanding where these people are coming from, because as an atheist I don't personally experience a lack of community and belonging. I would imagine a forced "sense" of community being prescribed at gunpoint to be quite alienating, but I've heard enough people asserting it to take it seriously. Maybe fundamentalist islam is just a meme whose time has come. Maybe the mindless, cruel herd is fundamentally more appealing to humans than individuality and free thought. In that case, we're not just seeing the pendulum swing here, we're seeing the transition into a new civilization: devoid of science and insight of any kind, yet wielding the tools of technology for maximum devastation.
    - api 10y ago
      I agree to an extent but I still see judgement here "mindless, cruel herd is fundamentally more appealing to humans than individuality and free thought". Huge numbers of people today have no friends and no community. Read a book called "Bowling Alone" for an America-centric view of the problem but it's actually global.
      - Udo 10y ago
        > but I still see judgement here That judgement is absolutely intentional. How can I not judge the abject surrender to herd mentality in particular, and fundamentalist belief in general? It's bidirectional, by the way, fundamentalists have no problem judging (and doing worse to) me for refusing to submit. > Huge numbers of people today have no friends and no community. To be fair, the rational answer might not be to join the Borg. It's debatable how much say common people even have in the matter when their whole region converts to religious governance. This leaves us with the people who do choose it for themselves, and they're faced with a non-trivial question: "do I agree with these values or do I just join in order to embed myself into a community, any community?" For those who agree with the fundamentalist message anyway, community is not the driving factor. The message itself is. Those who merely surrender to the message superficially in order to achieve community will probably become disenfranchised quite soon, because the community they chose is a dangerous place, even from the inside. What use is it to be surrounded by people if you still can't connect with them fully? However, by that point, the damage is done: by the rules you can enter, but you cannot leave ever again even if there's still a "you" left. Apostasy costs your life.

by lolc 10y ago

Apocryphon 10y ago

Which one's the Kemalists?

lolc 10y ago
militarist/nationalist If they could've gotten over the whole ethnic thing, things might look a lot better now.

Udo 10y ago

I have to give it to the militarists though: they were certainly secular. When the long-overdue recent military coup failed (or didn't happen, depending on who you ask), it seems to me the flood walls just collapsed irreversibly. Fundamentalist faith is on the rise worldwide, and Turkey has especially been under attack from within and without for all of its history. The country just feels lost at this point. It wasn't so long ago, Turkey was considered an important ally of the EU, on track to become a member state. Being German myself, we used to have a special relationship with that country. People forget nowadays that there are so many originally-Turkish people in Germany now because at one point the influx of Turkish workers was a welcome addition to the German economy. I often wonder about the parents of an ex-girlfriend, who after working their asses off in Germany for their entire lives, moved back to Turkey for retirement - for much the same reasons pensioners in the US move to Florida. They were a friendly, modern, secular couple. I wonder what situation they find themselves in now.

api 10y ago
I wish secularists would do a little more soul searching on the question of why fundamentalism is on the rise at all. Personally I think it's pretty simple: fundamentalism offers a sense of community and belonging. In the age of loneliness that's pretty compelling. Secularism offers knowledge and information but nothing human -- no community, no identity, no sense of place or culture. (I can't remember where I first heard "age of loneliness" but I think it's accurate.)
- Udo 10y ago
  > fundamentalism offers a sense of community and belonging That's certainly an interesting point. I must admit I struggle a bit with understanding where these people are coming from, because as an atheist I don't personally experience a lack of community and belonging. I would imagine a forced "sense" of community being prescribed at gunpoint to be quite alienating, but I've heard enough people asserting it to take it seriously. Maybe fundamentalist islam is just a meme whose time has come. Maybe the mindless, cruel herd is fundamentally more appealing to humans than individuality and free thought. In that case, we're not just seeing the pendulum swing here, we're seeing the transition into a new civilization: devoid of science and insight of any kind, yet wielding the tools of technology for maximum devastation.
  - api 10y ago
    I agree to an extent but I still see judgement here "mindless, cruel herd is fundamentally more appealing to humans than individuality and free thought". Huge numbers of people today have no friends and no community. Read a book called "Bowling Alone" for an America-centric view of the problem but it's actually global.
    - Udo 10y ago
      > but I still see judgement here That judgement is absolutely intentional. How can I not judge the abject surrender to herd mentality in particular, and fundamentalist belief in general? It's bidirectional, by the way, fundamentalists have no problem judging (and doing worse to) me for refusing to submit. > Huge numbers of people today have no friends and no community. To be fair, the rational answer might not be to join the Borg. It's debatable how much say common people even have in the matter when their whole region converts to religious governance. This leaves us with the people who do choose it for themselves, and they're faced with a non-trivial question: "do I agree with these values or do I just join in order to embed myself into a community, any community?" For those who agree with the fundamentalist message anyway, community is not the driving factor. The message itself is. Those who merely surrender to the message superficially in order to achieve community will probably become disenfranchised quite soon, because the community they chose is a dangerous place, even from the inside. What use is it to be surrounded by people if you still can't connect with them fully? However, by that point, the damage is done: by the rules you can enter, but you cannot leave ever again even if there's still a "you" left. Apostasy costs your life.