6 ms·

NYtimes writing news about SF as a haven for wealthy and childless is like SFchronicles writing about NY as haven for wealthy and carless.

loafa 10y ago
New York and San Francisco are both havens for the wealthy and childless. But is this a real problem? Different areas are good for different types of people. If you want to have children, move to somewhere you can have a proper backyard, because leaving your kids indoors all day will send both you and them crazy.
- stephancoral 10y ago
  I grew up in NYC. I certainly didn't stay indoors all day. You know there's like five or six absolutely massive sprawling parks in the city right? Not to mention exploring your neighborhood on bike and by foot. Growing up in the city is amazing and I feel bad for my peers who tell me of their suburban youth with the backyard and pool but they had to walk 30 minutes just to go to a store or see a friend.
  - nerfhammer 10y ago
    Yea, ironically you actually spend much more time outside in NYC because everyone walks everywhere, and there's always a nice park within a couple blocks of wherever you are.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    Same, grew up in a (small) city and it was amazing. We roamed and explored and had fun. My sister, 8 years younger, not so much. Everyone had clubs and extracuriculars and computers and homework and TV. No free time to roam and explore after school before parents come home.
  - loafa 10y ago
    I know that things have changed since I was a kid in the 80s and suburban parents are no longer happy sending their kids outside to roam the streets unsupervised. But surely even back in the day, parents wouldn't have sent young children to hang out unsupervised in Central Park?
    - stephancoral 10y ago
      The first time I rode the subway without an adult I was 10 or so. I had my little brother with me and he was about 6. We went to Prospect Park pretty often. This was the early eighties.
      - richardfontana 10y ago
        Similar for me, I grew up in New York and was taking the subway by myself to school from age 11 on (also early '80s). I can't remember when I first went to say Central Park unsupervised by adults but am sure it was by age 13.
stephancoral 10y ago
Except this was written in 1981 when NYC wasn't exactly the shining globalized mall it was today and the wealthy were fleeing like hell to CT and Jersey.
- ghaff 10y ago
  Manhattan still seemed outrageously expensive compared to most other places in the mid-80s or so, even if it was dirty and dangerous compared to today. That said, given prescience, I'm sure there were bargains to be had in what were not necessarily quite yet up and coming neighborhoods.
- geebee 10y ago
  That's interesting, and true. In the early 80s, the middle class abandonment of cities running at full throttle. New York and San Francisco had enough of an urban core to retain some of their middle class, but yeah, a lot of people left. This was the era of dirty harry movies, where people felt it was all kind of coming apart, that cities were sinking ships, and that you might want to get out while you can. It started turning around in the 90s, culturally (I remember commentaries on shows like "Friends", that an urban ideal was emerging, at least among young adults). This wasn't a brand new thing by any means, but preferring an urban environment started to make its way back into the mainstream again. And now, interestingly, it's full throttle once again, but this time, it's people trying to cram into cities rather than fleeing them. Rather than talking about "getting out" of SF, people talk about being "priced out" of San Francisco and NY and regrettably feeling forced to move to the suburbs. I'm not sure how much of this is really sincere - I live south of 280 in SF, and a lot of people who say they were priced out would turn their nose up at my neighborhood. But still, I don't think this kind of talk was as common in the early 80s. On another note - I felt New York was worse than SF, in terms of blight, in the early 90s when I lived there. Growing up in SF had certainly prepared me for the homelessness and aggressive panhandling, but it was heavier in NY. This may of course just reflect the neighborhoods I was in, but in NY, people asking for chance would follow me for blocks, negotiating (do you have subway tokens? I take subway tokens!) I was frequently approached for spare change in bars and restaurants (once, I dropped some money while paying for my coffee, a homeless man in NY jumped up to collect it for me, then held onto it as he entered negotiations for how much he would keep - possession being 9/10ths of the law, I guess). I went back to NY recently, after 20 years away, and my perception is that you're experience far less of this sort of thing in NY than SF now. Certainly, there were still homeless people in NY, but the aggression I'd experienced earlier really wasn't nearly as notable. In SF, I'd say it's gotten steadily heavier, more aggressive. Not sure why.

loafa 10y ago

New York and San Francisco are both havens for the wealthy and childless. But is this a real problem? Different areas are good for different types of people. If you want to have children, move to somewhere you can have a proper backyard, because leaving your kids indoors all day will send both you and them crazy.

stephancoral 10y ago
I grew up in NYC. I certainly didn't stay indoors all day. You know there's like five or six absolutely massive sprawling parks in the city right? Not to mention exploring your neighborhood on bike and by foot. Growing up in the city is amazing and I feel bad for my peers who tell me of their suburban youth with the backyard and pool but they had to walk 30 minutes just to go to a store or see a friend.
- nerfhammer 10y ago
  Yea, ironically you actually spend much more time outside in NYC because everyone walks everywhere, and there's always a nice park within a couple blocks of wherever you are.
- Swizec 10y ago
  Same, grew up in a (small) city and it was amazing. We roamed and explored and had fun. My sister, 8 years younger, not so much. Everyone had clubs and extracuriculars and computers and homework and TV. No free time to roam and explore after school before parents come home.
- loafa 10y ago
  I know that things have changed since I was a kid in the 80s and suburban parents are no longer happy sending their kids outside to roam the streets unsupervised. But surely even back in the day, parents wouldn't have sent young children to hang out unsupervised in Central Park?
  - stephancoral 10y ago
    The first time I rode the subway without an adult I was 10 or so. I had my little brother with me and he was about 6. We went to Prospect Park pretty often. This was the early eighties.
    - richardfontana 10y ago
      Similar for me, I grew up in New York and was taking the subway by myself to school from age 11 on (also early '80s). I can't remember when I first went to say Central Park unsupervised by adults but am sure it was by age 13.

stephancoral 10y ago

Except this was written in 1981 when NYC wasn't exactly the shining globalized mall it was today and the wealthy were fleeing like hell to CT and Jersey.

ghaff 10y ago
Manhattan still seemed outrageously expensive compared to most other places in the mid-80s or so, even if it was dirty and dangerous compared to today. That said, given prescience, I'm sure there were bargains to be had in what were not necessarily quite yet up and coming neighborhoods.
geebee 10y ago
That's interesting, and true. In the early 80s, the middle class abandonment of cities running at full throttle. New York and San Francisco had enough of an urban core to retain some of their middle class, but yeah, a lot of people left. This was the era of dirty harry movies, where people felt it was all kind of coming apart, that cities were sinking ships, and that you might want to get out while you can. It started turning around in the 90s, culturally (I remember commentaries on shows like "Friends", that an urban ideal was emerging, at least among young adults). This wasn't a brand new thing by any means, but preferring an urban environment started to make its way back into the mainstream again. And now, interestingly, it's full throttle once again, but this time, it's people trying to cram into cities rather than fleeing them. Rather than talking about "getting out" of SF, people talk about being "priced out" of San Francisco and NY and regrettably feeling forced to move to the suburbs. I'm not sure how much of this is really sincere - I live south of 280 in SF, and a lot of people who say they were priced out would turn their nose up at my neighborhood. But still, I don't think this kind of talk was as common in the early 80s. On another note - I felt New York was worse than SF, in terms of blight, in the early 90s when I lived there. Growing up in SF had certainly prepared me for the homelessness and aggressive panhandling, but it was heavier in NY. This may of course just reflect the neighborhoods I was in, but in NY, people asking for chance would follow me for blocks, negotiating (do you have subway tokens? I take subway tokens!) I was frequently approached for spare change in bars and restaurants (once, I dropped some money while paying for my coffee, a homeless man in NY jumped up to collect it for me, then held onto it as he entered negotiations for how much he would keep - possession being 9/10ths of the law, I guess). I went back to NY recently, after 20 years away, and my perception is that you're experience far less of this sort of thing in NY than SF now. Certainly, there were still homeless people in NY, but the aggression I'd experienced earlier really wasn't nearly as notable. In SF, I'd say it's gotten steadily heavier, more aggressive. Not sure why.