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I always feel very conflicted about remote work. It doesn't work for me personally, I never work remotely unless special circumstances force me to for a day or

by afastow 10y ago

I always feel very conflicted about remote work. It doesn't work for me personally, I never work remotely unless special circumstances force me to for a day or two. But I realize that is a personal preference and many people have the exact opposite preference and I want to respect that. But I have a couple of teammates that moved to different cities and are now 100% remote, and I find it very frustrating that I can essentially never talk to them in person. They fly in once or twice a year but that doesn't help the situation the entire rest of the year. They report that in their view video calls are working as an adequate replacement for face to face conversations but I completely disagree. I don't know the solution though. They are valuable team members and I'm glad they didn't have to leave the company when they moved, but at the same time I really don't want the trend to expand or for us to hire new people knowing they will be 100% remote.

matwood 10y ago
> But I have a couple of teammates that moved to different cities and are now 100% remote, and I find it very frustrating that I can essentially never talk to them in person. Why is it frustrating? What have you done to replace the in person? These are honest questions, and I'm not trying to be a PITA. The reason I ask, is that I have been working with remote coworkers since the late 90s (keep in mind that you can go to an office every day and still have many of your coworkers be in different offices). Video chat did not work very well then, and we basically did entire projects over the phone and email. Video chat, group chat, project management tools, etc... have made it so much easier to work with people who do not share the same space. Even in the same office, I prefer emails to random chats.
- afastow 10y ago
  Basically there are lots of times where I want to have a very brief informal conversation but chat isn't high enough bandwidth(I have to spend 3 minutes writing a paragraph that won't communicate what I'm trying to say as clearly as I'd be able to in 10 seconds talking) and jumping on a video call feels too formal. It's hard to give specific examples of this but it happens all the time. Maybe I don't even know what I want to say or ask exactly but I just want to throw a stream of consciousness at them. Sometimes that goes somewhere and there is a longer conversation but sometimes you just say some stuff and realize it didn't go anywhere and you say "nevermind let me think about it more". In person that's easy and not awkward because we do it all the time. It feels weird though to ask someone to jump on a video call, start talking at them for 30 seconds and then go "nevermind" and end it.
  - matwood 10y ago
    Honestly, you're going to have to get past feeling weird. Company culture needs to make all forms of communication expected and normal. Other than my first job programming at a tiny company while still in college, I have never worked in the same location as my entire team. Daily stand ups are where we caught up each morning with follow up phone calls where needed. Now chat is so pervasive that I tend to use that where a phone call may have been done in the past because it is less intrusive to the other person, can be shared with a group, and is self documenting. As far as reaching the 'never mind let me think about it more' moment, writing an email does the exact same thing, but often without interrupting the other person. This is why I prefer to send and receive emails when I have ideas or someone wants to share them (I also insist on written agendas for meetings). The act of writing tends to force a deeper level of thought up front.
    - afastow 10y ago
      The point I'm trying to get across is that I don't think you are wrong but I do think we are different. I agree that chat and calls and email all are beneficial. I use them all every day and they work very well. I agree that writing can help focus thoughts and it also forms documentation that will persist long after a conversation is forgotten. I can even see where all of those things are enough to make up for a lack of face-to-face conversations for many people. But it isn't entirely enough for me and I prefer not to have it implied that that means there is something wrong with me. I don't think that is your intention but it can come off that way. (Actually sorry reading through replies it isn't you doing this primarily but others) Some people work better remotely, some people work better primarily in person. Yes I can deal with having remote colleagues, but that isn't the way I work best. Just like you could work non-remotely and instead physically go to work every day, but that isn't the way you work best. I don't think either of us is wrong, just different.
  - vorpalhex 10y ago
    I've been on the opposite side of this. My own experience was that the person suffered from a mix of being a slow typer, and also didn't assemble ideas well before communicating them. For me at least, this was bad enough that I had to write as the person talked and rephrase their words back to them to make sure I had turned it into what they meant. A DM in a chat is precisely the place for those kind of convos (especially the "Well what about X, Y Z.. wait, nevermind, I figured it out" kind of comments which I'm especially guilty of). Just spend some time getting your thoughts distilled down before you start typing.
shanemhansen 10y ago
Maybe you need to work on your communication skills? I realize that's a snarky sounding answer, so let me expand on that. Face to face communication is nice and has benefits. But there are tradeoffs. It's clear that your company has decided that when making a decision between having certain team members be remotely part of the team or not at all, the choice is clear. So maybe the appropriate course of action is to accept the benefit of continuing to have access to those individuals and work on adjusting your communication style to support distributed teams. Protip: a remote first workflow also improves documentation and communication if you have more than one office. Personally, I welcome the chance to work with a group of minds that isn't restricted by the filter of "lives within x hours of office". The world is full of amazing projects created by people around the world working together. I think your observation is valid, but in my experience the drawbacks of remote working are dwarfed by the benefits.
- snarf21 10y ago
  In the end, not everything that works for one will work for another. The previous commenter may need to work on their communication skills but so may the people who are now remote. I think the one problem is these discussions (this is the third in as many weeks) is that people tend to take a stance of "My perfect work environment is ______. Everyone should adapt to me". I think we need to approach this differently. Have the team self organize around rules for availability, communication techniques, etc. Come up with plans for white-boarding and brainstorming when everyone is remote to each other. Or, come up with a plan to allow people in an open space to have some quiet and privacy to get work done. I find it rather silly that a single situation is what any employee needs 100% of the time and that if they think that, they aren't considering the needs of the rest of their team. Mostly everyone just needs a little perspective I think.
- afastow 10y ago
  See my other reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464828 But the summary is that it that the communications we have are not really a problem. I think I came off as stronger than I meant. It's more the conversations that don't happen at all because they are too inconsequential individually that I miss. None of it is horrible. I was wrong to say I thought it is completely inadequate. But it is less than ideal for me. I think my feeling is that it's of course fine for a team/company to be primarily or significantly remote because that works for a lot of people. Personally I couldn't be as productive as I like in that environment so I wouldn't work there but that is okay. I think it should also be fine for other teams or companies to insist on being primarily non-remote though because that also works for a lot of people.
tshadley 10y ago
It's a good reminder that email and video just don't have the bandwidth of a few million years of evolutionary-designed face-to-face social communication.

by afastow 10y ago

matwood 10y ago

> But I have a couple of teammates that moved to different cities and are now 100% remote, and I find it very frustrating that I can essentially never talk to them in person. Why is it frustrating? What have you done to replace the in person? These are honest questions, and I'm not trying to be a PITA. The reason I ask, is that I have been working with remote coworkers since the late 90s (keep in mind that you can go to an office every day and still have many of your coworkers be in different offices). Video chat did not work very well then, and we basically did entire projects over the phone and email. Video chat, group chat, project management tools, etc... have made it so much easier to work with people who do not share the same space. Even in the same office, I prefer emails to random chats.

afastow 10y ago
Basically there are lots of times where I want to have a very brief informal conversation but chat isn't high enough bandwidth(I have to spend 3 minutes writing a paragraph that won't communicate what I'm trying to say as clearly as I'd be able to in 10 seconds talking) and jumping on a video call feels too formal. It's hard to give specific examples of this but it happens all the time. Maybe I don't even know what I want to say or ask exactly but I just want to throw a stream of consciousness at them. Sometimes that goes somewhere and there is a longer conversation but sometimes you just say some stuff and realize it didn't go anywhere and you say "nevermind let me think about it more". In person that's easy and not awkward because we do it all the time. It feels weird though to ask someone to jump on a video call, start talking at them for 30 seconds and then go "nevermind" and end it.
- matwood 10y ago
  Honestly, you're going to have to get past feeling weird. Company culture needs to make all forms of communication expected and normal. Other than my first job programming at a tiny company while still in college, I have never worked in the same location as my entire team. Daily stand ups are where we caught up each morning with follow up phone calls where needed. Now chat is so pervasive that I tend to use that where a phone call may have been done in the past because it is less intrusive to the other person, can be shared with a group, and is self documenting. As far as reaching the 'never mind let me think about it more' moment, writing an email does the exact same thing, but often without interrupting the other person. This is why I prefer to send and receive emails when I have ideas or someone wants to share them (I also insist on written agendas for meetings). The act of writing tends to force a deeper level of thought up front.
  - afastow 10y ago
    The point I'm trying to get across is that I don't think you are wrong but I do think we are different. I agree that chat and calls and email all are beneficial. I use them all every day and they work very well. I agree that writing can help focus thoughts and it also forms documentation that will persist long after a conversation is forgotten. I can even see where all of those things are enough to make up for a lack of face-to-face conversations for many people. But it isn't entirely enough for me and I prefer not to have it implied that that means there is something wrong with me. I don't think that is your intention but it can come off that way. (Actually sorry reading through replies it isn't you doing this primarily but others) Some people work better remotely, some people work better primarily in person. Yes I can deal with having remote colleagues, but that isn't the way I work best. Just like you could work non-remotely and instead physically go to work every day, but that isn't the way you work best. I don't think either of us is wrong, just different.
- vorpalhex 10y ago
  I've been on the opposite side of this. My own experience was that the person suffered from a mix of being a slow typer, and also didn't assemble ideas well before communicating them. For me at least, this was bad enough that I had to write as the person talked and rephrase their words back to them to make sure I had turned it into what they meant. A DM in a chat is precisely the place for those kind of convos (especially the "Well what about X, Y Z.. wait, nevermind, I figured it out" kind of comments which I'm especially guilty of). Just spend some time getting your thoughts distilled down before you start typing.

shanemhansen 10y ago

Maybe you need to work on your communication skills? I realize that's a snarky sounding answer, so let me expand on that. Face to face communication is nice and has benefits. But there are tradeoffs. It's clear that your company has decided that when making a decision between having certain team members be remotely part of the team or not at all, the choice is clear. So maybe the appropriate course of action is to accept the benefit of continuing to have access to those individuals and work on adjusting your communication style to support distributed teams. Protip: a remote first workflow also improves documentation and communication if you have more than one office. Personally, I welcome the chance to work with a group of minds that isn't restricted by the filter of "lives within x hours of office". The world is full of amazing projects created by people around the world working together. I think your observation is valid, but in my experience the drawbacks of remote working are dwarfed by the benefits.

snarf21 10y ago
In the end, not everything that works for one will work for another. The previous commenter may need to work on their communication skills but so may the people who are now remote. I think the one problem is these discussions (this is the third in as many weeks) is that people tend to take a stance of "My perfect work environment is ______. Everyone should adapt to me". I think we need to approach this differently. Have the team self organize around rules for availability, communication techniques, etc. Come up with plans for white-boarding and brainstorming when everyone is remote to each other. Or, come up with a plan to allow people in an open space to have some quiet and privacy to get work done. I find it rather silly that a single situation is what any employee needs 100% of the time and that if they think that, they aren't considering the needs of the rest of their team. Mostly everyone just needs a little perspective I think.
afastow 10y ago
See my other reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464828 But the summary is that it that the communications we have are not really a problem. I think I came off as stronger than I meant. It's more the conversations that don't happen at all because they are too inconsequential individually that I miss. None of it is horrible. I was wrong to say I thought it is completely inadequate. But it is less than ideal for me. I think my feeling is that it's of course fine for a team/company to be primarily or significantly remote because that works for a lot of people. Personally I couldn't be as productive as I like in that environment so I wouldn't work there but that is okay. I think it should also be fine for other teams or companies to insist on being primarily non-remote though because that also works for a lot of people.

tshadley 10y ago

It's a good reminder that email and video just don't have the bandwidth of a few million years of evolutionary-designed face-to-face social communication.