11 ms·

I'm a parent with two children living in SF. Before I had children, I had no idea how difficult it was going to be, even putting aside finances. Most people wi

by achou 10y ago

I'm a parent with two children living in SF. Before I had children, I had no idea how difficult it was going to be, even putting aside finances. Most people without children just don't get how much more difficult ordinary life becomes. There is a deep reason that the "boring" suburbs beckon. Yes, the schools and the lower housing costs are a part of it. But there's also just the easier lifestyle, where you don't need to compete as much for everything. Parking, sidewalks, aggressive cars, daycare, schools, a seat on the bus, and very much avoiding crazy people who might harm your children. It is extremely stressful to walk your young child across a busy intersection in SOMA where a driver is aggressively trying to turn, where a crazy person is screaming at the top of his lungs, where a street that smells of urine awaits you on the other side. Putting SF aside, it's extremely difficult to maintain a good relationship with your spouse when a demanding job takes up a huge amount of time, and when that job seems like a vacation compared with the weekends with the kids. Almost universally every parent I know says that going to work on Monday is a relief, the beginning of their temporary vacation from the intensity of nuclear family life. The children themselves create the vast majority of the stress. Parents need environments that help reduce that burden, not merely keep inconveniences at bay. At our school the #1 wish of parents, by far, is for faraway grandparents to move nearby and help. If they could afford it. If they could survive in this city hostile to the elderly. If they were willing to give up their comfortable retirement travel adventures to shoulder some of the burden. Very, very few have this arrangement in SF.

untilHellbanned 10y ago
100% on point. That's why I'm insanely happy to live in St. Louis now right as our kids were born one mile from grandparents. We avoid most of that stress. As long as you work at a thriving place it feels virtually no different intellectually than SF. After all think about how many people you interact with meaningfully day to day. Seems like most people's work are little bubbles so the city you live in isn't super relevant.
- geerlingguy 10y ago
  STL here too. Also happy to be in flyover country with my family, close to a major city, working remote for a coastal startup.
manyxcxi 10y ago
This pretty much exactly sums up why we packed up our 3 kids (3 weeks, 1.5yrs and 3yrs at the time) and moved from Seattle back home to Portland where all my family is 20 minutes away and hers is only a couple hours. We're 6 months in and, minus the income tax, it's the best decision we've made as parents. Not having family, or people that are that close to you in your general vicinity makes a hard task incredibly more so.
- eikenberry 10y ago
  It's not like that for everyone. We moved to Portland (partly) to get away from our families back east. They were like more kids, adding more stress than relieving.
  - g00gler 10y ago
    Right. When your mom is the physical, dark haired embodiment Estelle Costanza it's a difficult decision.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - gcr 10y ago
    Maybe it's just Portland.
- dagw 10y ago
  where all my family is 20 minutes away To me this would be the factor that beats all others. Having raised a kid in perfectly nice area but with zero family or friends close by that could really help out, I'd probably consider moving to just about anywhere on earth to be closer to someone who could lend a hand.
  - xapata 10y ago
    I suppose it's easier to make new friends before having kids?
kelnos 10y ago
> Before I had children, I had no idea how difficult it was going to be, even putting aside finances. Most people without children just don't get how much more difficult ordinary life becomes. I have a very very tiny tiny inkling of how difficult, after spending several weeks with my sister, her husband, and their (now) 8-month-old. And I know that what I see and feel is only a tiny fraction of what they see and feel. It's the best shot of birth control I could ever get. And yet, parents -- on the whole -- love their kids, would do anything for them, and believe that their decision to have kids was the correct one. Holy biological imperatives, Batman. I really hate that there are so few kids in SF. I wish SF could be a more kid- and family-friendly city. It just seems like too many things need to be fixed to make that happen in any reasonable time frame, and it's tempting to suggest that other things -- such as the housing crisis -- are more pressing and deserving of people's time and attention.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- leereeves 10y ago
  > Holy biological imperatives, Batman. Putting those aside, from a purely logical perspective, someone has to have kids or the human race won't last much longer.
  - tornadoboy55 10y ago
    > give flat tax cut for people who have children > problem solved. Keeping it a flat rate also incentivizes wealthier (and thus on average higher educated) people to have more children.
    - comicjk 10y ago
      Experiments with this type of program have found that it mainly acts as a windfall to people who would have had children anyway. Demand for children seems to be pretty inelastic with respect to money. As far as I can see, it's a matter of social expectations and convenience.
Melchizedek 10y ago
Granted I live in Europe and have only been to SF once in my life, but from afar it looks to me as if the city's will to be 'tolerant', meaning homeless crazy people, gay BDSM-parades and human feces on the streets, makes it a lot less habitable to children and the elderly.
- akjainaj 10y ago
  I second your points, and I will add that it's not a surprise that a city full of liberal degeneracy is hostile to normal, traditional families. I don't even understand where this article is coming from, since "creating a city without children" sounds more like a feature of San Francisco, rather than a bug.
- synotna 10y ago
  Living in Cologne, Germany for nearly 10 years, the city seems to do fine for children despite being a "gay BDSM-parade" capital I imagine Amsterdam is doing fine too
- Inconel 10y ago
  I'm not at all surprised to see your comment being downvoted here but I largely agree. While most of the US is far too intolerant of homeless, and general issues of poverty, I think SF's brand of tolerance can sometimes swing too far in the other direction. SF's tolerance almost borders on apathy at times. I would also add that in addition to making the city less hospitable to children and the elderly, it can also make it tough to survive as a homeless person who doesn't want to have to use physical force to protect themselves from other homeless.
  - dagw 10y ago
    I think the down votes come from him equating crazy homeless people and human feces with gays and BDSM practioners.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      I mean I sort of get where he's coming from; the Folsom Street Festival and Mr. S Leather aren't really what I'd consider proper for children either, however well I personally might think of them. Where he's mixed up seems rather to be in imagining every day in SF is the Folsom Street Festival, and every store is Mr. S. Admittedly I've only visited SF myself, and rarely at that, and in considerable part specifically for the purpose of partaking in activities which are in no sense proper for children. But the very strong impression with which I've come away is that of a relatively ordinary town that's a bit unusually up itself but which also really knows how to let its hair down, rather than the latter-day Sodom which our interlocutor makes it out to be.
drvdevd 10y ago
You just told me everything I needed to hear. Thank you. [edit] being serious here -- I needed to read what you wrote.
- bonzini 10y ago
  If you don't mind, in what sense? There are multiple ways to read your message.
  - drvdevd 10y ago
    Well, I was being somewhat vague to avoid inserting my own story into the thread too much, but I'm going to be a first-time parent soon and I'm living in the same town I've lived in most of my life, which I often get fed up with and daydream of moving away from. OP just made me realize how lucky I am in my current situation, is all :) [edit] I'll add I've spent enough time in SF too to know what OP is talking about quite well
    - bonzini 10y ago
      Good then! :-) Finding a job where I could work from home was my best life choice ever. My wife could keep her job (1 hour commute, but at least we live close to all four grandparents) and I have flexible hours so I can take the boys to school.
    - radicalbyte 10y ago
      We bought a house across the road from the infants school (4 to 10) a decade ago. Later this year my boy starts. So glad we did that. Having kids with two full-time working parents totally changes you. So much that it took 3 job changes to finally find the right balance - no more interesting startups, it's relatively boring web stuff as freelancer for me. It's worth sacrificing a little of my work pleasure for the simplicity and extra money.
      - ekidd 10y ago
        > Having kids with two full-time working parents totally changes you. So much that it took 3 job changes to finally find the right balance - no more interesting startups, it's relatively boring web stuff as freelancer for me. You can still do interesting startups! But I would strongly recommend: 1. Startups which support remote work well. (If you can survive and thrive as a freelance consultant, you've got the discipline to make this work.) 2. Startups with enough money to pay you salary. 3. Startups where at least some of the cofounders have kids. So no more pre-money startups in dubious makeshift "offices" in San Franciso run by brilliant and ambitious 23-year-olds, basically. I know, that spoils some of the fun, but it also reduces the outcome variance. (I also wake up at 5am and start my working day very early, giving me more flexibility later in the day. It helps.)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
beachstartup 10y ago
> Most people without children just don't get how much more difficult ordinary life becomes. i think your mind is playing tricks on you. most people over 25 without children know exactly how difficult life is with children -- that's why they don't have any.
djm_ 10y ago
>Most people without children just don't get how much more difficult ordinary life becomes. This is a common thing to hear from parents but I feel it misses the mark for some couples that have rationally decided not to have children for precisely the reasons you stated. I think the difficulty you mentioned is actually a large reason as to why less couples are having kids in the first place. Edit: completely reworded.
- selectodude 10y ago
  How is that even slightly relevant? Everyone knows that kids are a pain in the ass. Everyone who has kids says "I knew they were a pain in the ass but they are way more of a pain than I even anticipated." So no, you don't know. You think you know but you don't. Continue not having kids. I will also continue not having kids. But don't be the "well I haven't seen it because I don't have a tv" guy because nobody gives a shit.
- ams6110 10y ago
  As a parent of three I never thought of it as difficulty so much as it just really forever changes things compared to how you lived as a single person or childless couple. You can understand that well enough to decide that you don't want any part of it, without understanding it to the depth of a person who has experienced it.
  - djm_ 10y ago
    Yes, fully agree.
  - human_breather 10y ago
    I agree, but I'm often confused by those without kids or those who say that having a kid totally changed people's lifestyles unexpectedly. For me, having a kid has certainly been an (expected) money drain. But beyond that, my life is pretty similar to pre-kid. Wife and I still work our day jobs. Outside of work we still enjoy the same sorts of things we enjoyed before having a kid and continue to do those things. Now we just have an extra source of entertainment and responsibility in the kid as well.
0x445442 10y ago
A big problem is two income families. It's always struck me as odd that folks think they could give parenting their divided attention and then honestly claim they've given their best effort. Our culture was hoodwinked into thinking raising children was somehow less important than having a career. Child rearing is a full time job if performed optimally and it's importance should be recognized and championed.
- oppositelock 10y ago
  My wife and I both work, and we have kids. It's not because of any relative importance of career versus kids, it's simply because we couldn't afford to live here in the SF Bay Area otherwise. It would be wonderful if one of us could stay home, but there's more to it than that as well. Have you ever spent all day with toddlers? It's enough to make you go mad sometimes, and it also starves you of adult interaction. Chasing little wild humans and occasionally commanding, "No! Spit that out!" isn't really interaction. You need a support system when raising kids. Traditionally, this has been family, but people move around for work so much in the US, that many of us don't have that support system, and we outsource that to professionals - day care, nannies, co-ops. All that stuff costs money, and so, we both have to work.
  - chrisper 10y ago
    The questions I am about to ask are not meant to judge you. I am asking, because I am pretty sure you asked yourself these as well and I am just curious about your answers. If you both are so busy and "barley" (not homeless barley, but like needing dual-income) can afford living in the SF Bay Area, then why have kids? Similarly, why live in the SF Bay Area?
    - oppositelock 10y ago
      The bay area is very expensive and it takes an exceptional single income to live comfortably, or you make huge compromises, so I think dual income families are far more common that not. When it comes to having children, at some point, you decide you're ready and find a way to make it work. We're managing, but we both have to work. We love the area, our friends are here, are careers are here, we're up in the mountains every few weeks enjoying nature, this really is a beautiful part of the country, and you pay for that. Life isn't only about minimizing costs. Long term, we probably can't afford to stay here unless I win the startup lottery, so we have an exit plan, but for now, we're enjoying this place.
ttcbj 10y ago
This is so true. Having children is such a tectonic shift in lifestyle that I think it is very hard to anticipate how it will impact your priorities. I was close to both my parents and grandparents before having kids, but I felt a new, deeper connection to them after we had kids.
kabouseng 10y ago
https://youtu.be/uFQfylQ2Jgg https://youtu.be/uFQfylQ2Jgg Stand up comedy - people with no kids don't know
api 10y ago
I'm curious if anyone here has ever had kids in a (good, well run) cohousing community. A major reason young kids are so stressful is they're relying on parents for play and social stimulation when they need more unstructured time with other kids. This is not the preferred way for either parent or child. Parents get fatigued entertaining three and four year olds because they are not three, and kids will choose other kids over parents most of the time if it's available. The problem with parks and play spaces is that the kids don't know each other. Family life is segregated so kids don't get to form bonds.
pdog 10y ago
> It is extremely stressful to walk your young child across a busy intersection in SOMA [...] where a crazy person is screaming at the top of his lungs, where a street that smells of urine awaits you on the other side. It's not normal for a city to have these things. It's unacceptable that one of the richest cities in the world has normalized (or become conditioned to) such a sad state of affairs. You shouldn't be afraid to raise a young child in the city.
- rublev 10y ago
  >You shouldn't be afraid to raise your child in a vibrant, stimulating urban environment. "Stimulating urban environment". What do these words mean to you? Cities strike nothing but fear into me.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
elastic_church 10y ago
> At our school the #1 wish of parents, by far, is for faraway grandparents to move nearby and help. If they could afford it. thats what the two Au pairs sunbathing on your porch are for.

by achou 10y ago

untilHellbanned 10y ago

100% on point. That's why I'm insanely happy to live in St. Louis now right as our kids were born one mile from grandparents. We avoid most of that stress. As long as you work at a thriving place it feels virtually no different intellectually than SF. After all think about how many people you interact with meaningfully day to day. Seems like most people's work are little bubbles so the city you live in isn't super relevant.

geerlingguy 10y ago
STL here too. Also happy to be in flyover country with my family, close to a major city, working remote for a coastal startup.

manyxcxi 10y ago

This pretty much exactly sums up why we packed up our 3 kids (3 weeks, 1.5yrs and 3yrs at the time) and moved from Seattle back home to Portland where all my family is 20 minutes away and hers is only a couple hours. We're 6 months in and, minus the income tax, it's the best decision we've made as parents. Not having family, or people that are that close to you in your general vicinity makes a hard task incredibly more so.

eikenberry 10y ago
It's not like that for everyone. We moved to Portland (partly) to get away from our families back east. They were like more kids, adding more stress than relieving.
- g00gler 10y ago
  Right. When your mom is the physical, dark haired embodiment Estelle Costanza it's a difficult decision.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- gcr 10y ago
  Maybe it's just Portland.
dagw 10y ago
where all my family is 20 minutes away To me this would be the factor that beats all others. Having raised a kid in perfectly nice area but with zero family or friends close by that could really help out, I'd probably consider moving to just about anywhere on earth to be closer to someone who could lend a hand.
- xapata 10y ago
  I suppose it's easier to make new friends before having kids?

kelnos 10y ago

> Before I had children, I had no idea how difficult it was going to be, even putting aside finances. Most people without children just don't get how much more difficult ordinary life becomes. I have a very very tiny tiny inkling of how difficult, after spending several weeks with my sister, her husband, and their (now) 8-month-old. And I know that what I see and feel is only a tiny fraction of what they see and feel. It's the best shot of birth control I could ever get. And yet, parents -- on the whole -- love their kids, would do anything for them, and believe that their decision to have kids was the correct one. Holy biological imperatives, Batman. I really hate that there are so few kids in SF. I wish SF could be a more kid- and family-friendly city. It just seems like too many things need to be fixed to make that happen in any reasonable time frame, and it's tempting to suggest that other things -- such as the housing crisis -- are more pressing and deserving of people's time and attention.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
leereeves 10y ago
> Holy biological imperatives, Batman. Putting those aside, from a purely logical perspective, someone has to have kids or the human race won't last much longer.
- tornadoboy55 10y ago
  > give flat tax cut for people who have children > problem solved. Keeping it a flat rate also incentivizes wealthier (and thus on average higher educated) people to have more children.
  - comicjk 10y ago
    Experiments with this type of program have found that it mainly acts as a windfall to people who would have had children anyway. Demand for children seems to be pretty inelastic with respect to money. As far as I can see, it's a matter of social expectations and convenience.

Melchizedek 10y ago

Granted I live in Europe and have only been to SF once in my life, but from afar it looks to me as if the city's will to be 'tolerant', meaning homeless crazy people, gay BDSM-parades and human feces on the streets, makes it a lot less habitable to children and the elderly.

akjainaj 10y ago
I second your points, and I will add that it's not a surprise that a city full of liberal degeneracy is hostile to normal, traditional families. I don't even understand where this article is coming from, since "creating a city without children" sounds more like a feature of San Francisco, rather than a bug.
synotna 10y ago
Living in Cologne, Germany for nearly 10 years, the city seems to do fine for children despite being a "gay BDSM-parade" capital I imagine Amsterdam is doing fine too
Inconel 10y ago
I'm not at all surprised to see your comment being downvoted here but I largely agree. While most of the US is far too intolerant of homeless, and general issues of poverty, I think SF's brand of tolerance can sometimes swing too far in the other direction. SF's tolerance almost borders on apathy at times. I would also add that in addition to making the city less hospitable to children and the elderly, it can also make it tough to survive as a homeless person who doesn't want to have to use physical force to protect themselves from other homeless.
- dagw 10y ago
  I think the down votes come from him equating crazy homeless people and human feces with gays and BDSM practioners.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    I mean I sort of get where he's coming from; the Folsom Street Festival and Mr. S Leather aren't really what I'd consider proper for children either, however well I personally might think of them. Where he's mixed up seems rather to be in imagining every day in SF is the Folsom Street Festival, and every store is Mr. S. Admittedly I've only visited SF myself, and rarely at that, and in considerable part specifically for the purpose of partaking in activities which are in no sense proper for children. But the very strong impression with which I've come away is that of a relatively ordinary town that's a bit unusually up itself but which also really knows how to let its hair down, rather than the latter-day Sodom which our interlocutor makes it out to be.

drvdevd 10y ago

You just told me everything I needed to hear. Thank you. [edit] being serious here -- I needed to read what you wrote.

bonzini 10y ago
If you don't mind, in what sense? There are multiple ways to read your message.
- drvdevd 10y ago
  Well, I was being somewhat vague to avoid inserting my own story into the thread too much, but I'm going to be a first-time parent soon and I'm living in the same town I've lived in most of my life, which I often get fed up with and daydream of moving away from. OP just made me realize how lucky I am in my current situation, is all :) [edit] I'll add I've spent enough time in SF too to know what OP is talking about quite well
  - bonzini 10y ago
    Good then! :-) Finding a job where I could work from home was my best life choice ever. My wife could keep her job (1 hour commute, but at least we live close to all four grandparents) and I have flexible hours so I can take the boys to school.
  - radicalbyte 10y ago
    We bought a house across the road from the infants school (4 to 10) a decade ago. Later this year my boy starts. So glad we did that. Having kids with two full-time working parents totally changes you. So much that it took 3 job changes to finally find the right balance - no more interesting startups, it's relatively boring web stuff as freelancer for me. It's worth sacrificing a little of my work pleasure for the simplicity and extra money.
    - ekidd 10y ago
      > Having kids with two full-time working parents totally changes you. So much that it took 3 job changes to finally find the right balance - no more interesting startups, it's relatively boring web stuff as freelancer for me. You can still do interesting startups! But I would strongly recommend: 1. Startups which support remote work well. (If you can survive and thrive as a freelance consultant, you've got the discipline to make this work.) 2. Startups with enough money to pay you salary. 3. Startups where at least some of the cofounders have kids. So no more pre-money startups in dubious makeshift "offices" in San Franciso run by brilliant and ambitious 23-year-olds, basically. I know, that spoils some of the fun, but it also reduces the outcome variance. (I also wake up at 5am and start my working day very early, giving me more flexibility later in the day. It helps.)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

beachstartup 10y ago

> Most people without children just don't get how much more difficult ordinary life becomes. i think your mind is playing tricks on you. most people over 25 without children know exactly how difficult life is with children -- that's why they don't have any.

djm_ 10y ago

>Most people without children just don't get how much more difficult ordinary life becomes. This is a common thing to hear from parents but I feel it misses the mark for some couples that have rationally decided not to have children for precisely the reasons you stated. I think the difficulty you mentioned is actually a large reason as to why less couples are having kids in the first place. Edit: completely reworded.

selectodude 10y ago
How is that even slightly relevant? Everyone knows that kids are a pain in the ass. Everyone who has kids says "I knew they were a pain in the ass but they are way more of a pain than I even anticipated." So no, you don't know. You think you know but you don't. Continue not having kids. I will also continue not having kids. But don't be the "well I haven't seen it because I don't have a tv" guy because nobody gives a shit.
ams6110 10y ago
As a parent of three I never thought of it as difficulty so much as it just really forever changes things compared to how you lived as a single person or childless couple. You can understand that well enough to decide that you don't want any part of it, without understanding it to the depth of a person who has experienced it.
- djm_ 10y ago
  Yes, fully agree.
- human_breather 10y ago
  I agree, but I'm often confused by those without kids or those who say that having a kid totally changed people's lifestyles unexpectedly. For me, having a kid has certainly been an (expected) money drain. But beyond that, my life is pretty similar to pre-kid. Wife and I still work our day jobs. Outside of work we still enjoy the same sorts of things we enjoyed before having a kid and continue to do those things. Now we just have an extra source of entertainment and responsibility in the kid as well.

0x445442 10y ago

A big problem is two income families. It's always struck me as odd that folks think they could give parenting their divided attention and then honestly claim they've given their best effort. Our culture was hoodwinked into thinking raising children was somehow less important than having a career. Child rearing is a full time job if performed optimally and it's importance should be recognized and championed.

oppositelock 10y ago
My wife and I both work, and we have kids. It's not because of any relative importance of career versus kids, it's simply because we couldn't afford to live here in the SF Bay Area otherwise. It would be wonderful if one of us could stay home, but there's more to it than that as well. Have you ever spent all day with toddlers? It's enough to make you go mad sometimes, and it also starves you of adult interaction. Chasing little wild humans and occasionally commanding, "No! Spit that out!" isn't really interaction. You need a support system when raising kids. Traditionally, this has been family, but people move around for work so much in the US, that many of us don't have that support system, and we outsource that to professionals - day care, nannies, co-ops. All that stuff costs money, and so, we both have to work.
- chrisper 10y ago
  The questions I am about to ask are not meant to judge you. I am asking, because I am pretty sure you asked yourself these as well and I am just curious about your answers. If you both are so busy and "barley" (not homeless barley, but like needing dual-income) can afford living in the SF Bay Area, then why have kids? Similarly, why live in the SF Bay Area?
  - oppositelock 10y ago
    The bay area is very expensive and it takes an exceptional single income to live comfortably, or you make huge compromises, so I think dual income families are far more common that not. When it comes to having children, at some point, you decide you're ready and find a way to make it work. We're managing, but we both have to work. We love the area, our friends are here, are careers are here, we're up in the mountains every few weeks enjoying nature, this really is a beautiful part of the country, and you pay for that. Life isn't only about minimizing costs. Long term, we probably can't afford to stay here unless I win the startup lottery, so we have an exit plan, but for now, we're enjoying this place.

ttcbj 10y ago

This is so true. Having children is such a tectonic shift in lifestyle that I think it is very hard to anticipate how it will impact your priorities. I was close to both my parents and grandparents before having kids, but I felt a new, deeper connection to them after we had kids.

kabouseng 10y ago

https://youtu.be/uFQfylQ2Jgg https://youtu.be/uFQfylQ2Jgg Stand up comedy - people with no kids don't know

api 10y ago

I'm curious if anyone here has ever had kids in a (good, well run) cohousing community. A major reason young kids are so stressful is they're relying on parents for play and social stimulation when they need more unstructured time with other kids. This is not the preferred way for either parent or child. Parents get fatigued entertaining three and four year olds because they are not three, and kids will choose other kids over parents most of the time if it's available. The problem with parks and play spaces is that the kids don't know each other. Family life is segregated so kids don't get to form bonds.

pdog 10y ago

> It is extremely stressful to walk your young child across a busy intersection in SOMA [...] where a crazy person is screaming at the top of his lungs, where a street that smells of urine awaits you on the other side. It's not normal for a city to have these things. It's unacceptable that one of the richest cities in the world has normalized (or become conditioned to) such a sad state of affairs. You shouldn't be afraid to raise a young child in the city.

rublev 10y ago
>You shouldn't be afraid to raise your child in a vibrant, stimulating urban environment. "Stimulating urban environment". What do these words mean to you? Cities strike nothing but fear into me.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

elastic_church 10y ago

> At our school the #1 wish of parents, by far, is for faraway grandparents to move nearby and help. If they could afford it. thats what the two Au pairs sunbathing on your porch are for.