6 ms·

I will refuse giving keys to hdd/usb, pretending they are randomly empty. I will give it to the phone (and have nothing there). This prohibits them from barrin

by rdslw 10y ago

I will refuse giving keys to hdd/usb, pretending they are randomly empty. I will give it to the phone (and have nothing there). This prohibits them from barring me from entering, and allow them only to seize the hdd/usb.

alasdair_ 10y ago
>This prohibits them from barring me from entering In practice, you can be barred from entering the US for effectively any reason at all, unless you are a citizen. At the border you have almost no rights at all.
psybin 10y ago
You say that, but put in the situation you'll find your bravado is significantly lessened.
- drvdevd 10y ago
  Right. The best scheme requires no bravado. You should be able to tell the truth: 1) use FDE with a LUKS-like scheme where the encryption header can be backed up and then removed (making sure you can restore it at your destination somehow). 2) Destroy the header before travel. Carry live media if you need to use the machine while traveling but keep it minimally provisioned (nothing personal on there). 3) Your machine essentially now contains random data (even to you), perhaps except the partition table and/or boot parition(s). Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft." This is a true statement because: a) without the LUKS header your own data is essentially random, even to you and b) the scheme does protect your data in the event of theft. Thus you can safely utter it with no bravado. An even better scheme would use verified boot of some kind so that if the device is confiscated and returned, and its critical to you, you may have some way of proving the boot loader hasn't been tampered with. But I can't speak as to the difficulty of this.
  - throwawayish 10y ago
    It's just such a moot point. If you have relevant data, then you simply don't cross borders with a device containing such data (or with a computer at all). This is just common sense. This "plausible deniable encryption at the border" nonsense is just a cryptonerds imagination.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    > Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft." Better yet, tell them your laptop broke while in the airport before boarding the plane, and you are going to buy a new harddisk/get it serviced when you arrive at your final destination. Much more plausible.
    - tristanj 10y ago
      > tell them your laptop broke while in the airport before boarding the plane, and you are going to buy a new harddisk/get it serviced when you arrive at your final destination It's a felony to make false or deliberately misleading statements to U.S. border agents. Unless your laptop actually broke while in the airport, performing the scheme you described is a felony.
      - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        Sure, just as the scheme described in the post I was replying to. In both cases it's assumed that the lie is undetectable, by virtue of properly encrypted data being indistinguishable from random noise, and of the scheme not being shared with anyone else nor written down.
      - drvdevd 10y ago
        And as in the original "scheme" -- this is a question of technicalities and (perhaps only if you're a US citizen, perhaps not), whether or not the authorities in question are willing to take it to trial and prove that you "lied". If you removed a key header which is crucial to the operation of your device in the airport, then the question is whether you can legally say, "my laptop broke in the airport," even if it was you who deliberately broke it. This also covers the case of the question, "Does this device contain personal data?" To which you can truthfully answer, "Yes." The point, in my original scenario also is not to lie, but to simply avoid being able to provide access under duress.
pjc50 10y ago
No, they can bar you from entry for any non-compliance.
jamessb 10y ago
The advice I've heard is that if you're concerned about being compelled to release passwords or encyption keys you should cross borders with no personal/work data on your devices. This avoids any 'half-truths' that could still get you into trouble. Once you have safely crosed, download what you need from during your trip from your server (and consider using it as a VPN for all your internet browsing). If the authorities take your device out of your sight, and you're sufficiently paranoid, then discard it and buy fresh hardware.
- Asooka 10y ago
  What if I overwrite the partition table with an empty one, say "I'm just carrying empty HDDs", then restore it later? If all the data is encrypted, it will just look random, even if they dump all of it, which is what I imagine a new HDD looks like.
  - pritambaral 10y ago
    1. "empty HDD" may or may not be regarded as suspicious 2. it may not just look random, unless the encryption is done in a way that tries to be plausibly deniable. Not all disk/data encryption methods try to hide their existence.
  - csydas 10y ago
    I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish - TSA agents are no more trained in computers than your average mall-cop and if they do decide to inspect your electronics, it's likely because you were flagged already when the ticket was purchased or you rubbed the agent the wrong way. What your drive looks like is probably irrelevant as the decision to copy isn't based on evidence or practicality it's based on an order from higher up or a whim, and then procedure is followed, which for electronics is to plug the drive in and do a copy of some sort. I mean you can do whatever you want but only the encryption is going to do you any good for actual security. Even if you make it really convincing that the drives are empty, procedure is still going to make them plug it into the copier anyways. I mean, from the article, they're confiscating headphones and power cords - there's no rhyme or reason here except intimidation; the agents don't investigate - someone else does. Do what you like, but it sounds like hassle you're adding to what is going to happen anyways.

by rdslw 10y ago

alasdair_ 10y ago

>This prohibits them from barring me from entering In practice, you can be barred from entering the US for effectively any reason at all, unless you are a citizen. At the border you have almost no rights at all.

psybin 10y ago

You say that, but put in the situation you'll find your bravado is significantly lessened.

drvdevd 10y ago
Right. The best scheme requires no bravado. You should be able to tell the truth: 1) use FDE with a LUKS-like scheme where the encryption header can be backed up and then removed (making sure you can restore it at your destination somehow). 2) Destroy the header before travel. Carry live media if you need to use the machine while traveling but keep it minimally provisioned (nothing personal on there). 3) Your machine essentially now contains random data (even to you), perhaps except the partition table and/or boot parition(s). Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft." This is a true statement because: a) without the LUKS header your own data is essentially random, even to you and b) the scheme does protect your data in the event of theft. Thus you can safely utter it with no bravado. An even better scheme would use verified boot of some kind so that if the device is confiscated and returned, and its critical to you, you may have some way of proving the boot loader hasn't been tampered with. But I can't speak as to the difficulty of this.
- throwawayish 10y ago
  It's just such a moot point. If you have relevant data, then you simply don't cross borders with a device containing such data (or with a computer at all). This is just common sense. This "plausible deniable encryption at the border" nonsense is just a cryptonerds imagination.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  > Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft." Better yet, tell them your laptop broke while in the airport before boarding the plane, and you are going to buy a new harddisk/get it serviced when you arrive at your final destination. Much more plausible.
  - tristanj 10y ago
    > tell them your laptop broke while in the airport before boarding the plane, and you are going to buy a new harddisk/get it serviced when you arrive at your final destination It's a felony to make false or deliberately misleading statements to U.S. border agents. Unless your laptop actually broke while in the airport, performing the scheme you described is a felony.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      Sure, just as the scheme described in the post I was replying to. In both cases it's assumed that the lie is undetectable, by virtue of properly encrypted data being indistinguishable from random noise, and of the scheme not being shared with anyone else nor written down.
    - drvdevd 10y ago
      And as in the original "scheme" -- this is a question of technicalities and (perhaps only if you're a US citizen, perhaps not), whether or not the authorities in question are willing to take it to trial and prove that you "lied". If you removed a key header which is crucial to the operation of your device in the airport, then the question is whether you can legally say, "my laptop broke in the airport," even if it was you who deliberately broke it. This also covers the case of the question, "Does this device contain personal data?" To which you can truthfully answer, "Yes." The point, in my original scenario also is not to lie, but to simply avoid being able to provide access under duress.

pjc50 10y ago

No, they can bar you from entry for any non-compliance.

jamessb 10y ago

The advice I've heard is that if you're concerned about being compelled to release passwords or encyption keys you should cross borders with no personal/work data on your devices. This avoids any 'half-truths' that could still get you into trouble. Once you have safely crosed, download what you need from during your trip from your server (and consider using it as a VPN for all your internet browsing). If the authorities take your device out of your sight, and you're sufficiently paranoid, then discard it and buy fresh hardware.

Asooka 10y ago
What if I overwrite the partition table with an empty one, say "I'm just carrying empty HDDs", then restore it later? If all the data is encrypted, it will just look random, even if they dump all of it, which is what I imagine a new HDD looks like.
- pritambaral 10y ago
  1. "empty HDD" may or may not be regarded as suspicious 2. it may not just look random, unless the encryption is done in a way that tries to be plausibly deniable. Not all disk/data encryption methods try to hide their existence.
- csydas 10y ago
  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish - TSA agents are no more trained in computers than your average mall-cop and if they do decide to inspect your electronics, it's likely because you were flagged already when the ticket was purchased or you rubbed the agent the wrong way. What your drive looks like is probably irrelevant as the decision to copy isn't based on evidence or practicality it's based on an order from higher up or a whim, and then procedure is followed, which for electronics is to plug the drive in and do a copy of some sort. I mean you can do whatever you want but only the encryption is going to do you any good for actual security. Even if you make it really convincing that the drives are empty, procedure is still going to make them plug it into the copier anyways. I mean, from the article, they're confiscating headphones and power cords - there's no rhyme or reason here except intimidation; the agents don't investigate - someone else does. Do what you like, but it sounds like hassle you're adding to what is going to happen anyways.