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I don't get why people are so surprised that this is the Apple we're seeing under Tim. Tim was the COO... he knows operations. He's not a creative, he's not a t

I don't get why people are so surprised that this is the Apple we're seeing under Tim. Tim was the COO... he knows operations. He's not a creative, he's not a tech guy. He knows operations, and he knows them well. While the creative/user facing side has been lack luster (depending on if you ask the average consumer or a techie), the operational side is booming. Their product line has slimmed, they have clear and concise build processes, they've improved their services roll out and are still sitting on a mound of cash. I think Tim has accomplished what he was put in place to do. People act like Steve Jobs, the guy who put Tim there, didn't know Tim at all. Jobs knew Tim very well. He knew what Tim was good at, and I'm sure they talked about what Tim should do in the future. This is the established course for Apple. Take it or leave it.

athenot 10y ago
The unfortunate part of this is that while a crazy product-driven visionnary needs a solid Operations leader to deliver the product, an Operations head will not suffer having a crazy product wildcard among his ranks. So this is a one-way transition from creative chaos to predictable stability.
- kasey_junk 10y ago
  Is there any evidence at all to back up this assertion? Why in the world would you assume that an operations head can't see the value of product driven visionaries, but the reverse is true? I have worked several times for operational leaders who have valued and cultivated visionary product thinking.
rapsey 10y ago
> Their product line has slimed, they have clear and concise build processes, and are still sitting on a mound of cash. The mac line is regressing in terms of hardware and software. While they used to have one of the best mobile dev environments, they now have the worst development environment. XCode is a bigger mess every release. Every macOS has more bugs then the last.
- tptacek 10y ago
  The Mac line is regressing according to people who bought the first iteration of a new Mac product, violating a cardinal rule in place since the Titanium Powerbook. To my eyes, this is more like adherence to a time-honored Apple tradition.
  - deong 10y ago
    When the second generation won't exist for half a decade, I don't think the old rules are still in effect.
  - rapsey 10y ago
    Software is getting less reliable as well.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      You are not going to convince someone who ran 10.0 that we have reached some unprecedented low in Apple software quality.
      - johansch 10y ago
        At that time they had a proper excuse though - it was brand new, they had financial issues, their old OS was antiquated so they had to rush, etc, etc. They then worked diligently for like a decade to reach a peak in terms of features, design and quality around the time of Steve's death in 2011. Now they don't really have any excuses.
      - nickpsecurity 10y ago
        Sun did an rewrite and upgrade of Solaris into version 10 with quite a bit of reliability. All that work cost just under $300 million. Apple has over 100x that money. You'd think they could at least afford the SDL & static analysis Microsoft was using if not a total rewrite of Mac OS X into the greatest OS ever made. They also have differentiators of usability, cool factor, UNIX support & privacy given Microsoft's turn with recent Windows. There's also a software ecosystem to further monetize & develop. Apple is screwing up big time in letting Mac OS languish.
wavefunction 10y ago
You'd think their OS releases would be decent but Mavericks and Yosemite sucked. Mavericks, ostensibly an update to include their ebooks platform caused my macbook pro to shut-down at random times and force me into quasi disk-repair to start the computer back up again. It was by-far the worst experience with a computer I've ever had, and I started out on 286s many moons ago so I seen some chit...
- ihuman 10y ago
  What does this comment have to do with the one you replied to? Instead of adding to the conversation about Cook using what he learned as COO under Jobs, you're complaining about software updates.
- misnome 10y ago
  And the windows 10 anniversary update literally caused my computer to freeze for up to 30 seconds every time I tried to interact with the task bar. These things happen with all companies.
agumonkey 10y ago
I wonder if they discussed the phase Apple is entering right now though. I agree with you that Jobs probably understood 100% what Cook at the head would mean, and did it willingly; IMO to ensure a long and smooth ride of the previous era successes. Now did they have plans in mind for long term ..
devoply 10y ago
Operations will not keep Apple alive. I mean Jobs was a genius in knowing what people want, but he wasn't good at knowing how to replace himself. It's outside his abilities just like it's Cook's abilities to be creative or to know what people want. Operations people are good for operations, and nothing else. And usually hated by many people in the company for the policies they force on the company in order to improve the bottom line.
dottrap 10y ago
> he's not a tech guy Well, he kind of is, but not in a way that appeals to most tech geek crowds. He has a degree in Industrial Engineering which (defined by Wikipedia): "work to eliminate waste of time, money, materials, man-hours, machine time, energy and other resources that do not generate value". Engineering to make things more efficient and reduce waste may not be "tech sexy", but to make it happen involves real technology and engineering.
- John23832 10y ago
  True, but it seems his focus is more process engineering than what you and I would consider "techie".
- ProAm 10y ago
  It took an Industrial Engineer to get rid of the headphone jack.
  - bluejekyll 10y ago
    Honestly, the headphone jack while ubiquitous, is an ancient interface. My biggest issue with it's removal is that they didn't replace it with another analog interface. I believe that the DAC should live in the phone, leaving the headphone to merely to deal with a simple analog signal. I haven't jumped into the wireless bandwagon, bc the wire has never bothered me. On top of that I have a great battery and DAC in the phone already, I really don't want to be bothered with charging one more thing. If they had adopted a new standard interface that would have been great. Hell I would even be ok with it being usbc if that meant that the jack was standard. It's this non-standard interface that has me considering not buying a new iPhone. I don't care about the loss of the analog jack as much as the non-standard wired option that's left.
    - ProAm 10y ago
      > the headphone jack while ubiquitous, is an ancient interface Ancient, but MASSIVELY used, and affordable. There are finally high quality affordable wired headphones out there that I can use between multiple devices. Removing it forces people to spend significantly more money on a ancillary accessory that is not guaranteed to work across multiple devices. It was a money grab.
91bananas 10y ago
> Their product line has slimed Possible Freudian slip?
simonh 10y ago
> While the creative/user facing side has been lack luster I just don't see it. 5K and retina wide colour gamut displays, the aggressively lightweight MacBook design, new Mac Pros with an entirely new touch interface system, new keyboard mechanism and new hinge mechanism, continuity, a new graphics API subsystem (Metal), a brand new programming language. Then you have the Apple Watch. Which area exactly do you think they are lacking in? What other computer manufacturer or OS vendor is out-innovating Apple? Microsoft Surface? Bought-in commodity touch tech and 5400 RPM hard drives. If you compare the last 6 years with the period between the introduction of the iPod and the introduction of the iPhone, the last 6 years easily wins in terms of new innovative product releases and updates.
- John23832 10y ago
  >>(depending on if you ask the average consumer or a techie) There are definitely people who feel left out by Apple. As evident by the numerous blog post and talks on the internet.
  - simonh 10y ago
    If the internet were to be believed, the iPhone was a marketing-lead fad with no chance of success and every month since 2007 a new reason gets trotted out for their impending doom. Meanwhile actual sales, customer satisfaction ratings and margins climb ever higher. All of which drives the haters ever more cranky, hence all the blog posts.
    - John23832 10y ago
      None of what you said matters. I said in my previous comment (and was implied in the OP) that people feel left out by Apple. The only proof I need for that is one person write a blog post saying that they feel left out by Apple, which we've definitely seen.
      - Caprinicus 10y ago
        It matters because people writing angry blog posts because apple leaves someone out has happened at every iteration of every apple product ever. Apple removing the firewire port was the end of the world. http://appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/jobs_responds_to_outrage_over_macbooks_missing_firewire http://appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/jobs_responds_to_o... Apple removing the matte screen option was a the end of the world http://www.macworld.com/article/1136061/matte_laptops.html http://www.macworld.com/article/1136061/matte_laptops.html Using USB instead of ADB, SCSI and GeoPort and ditching floppy drives was the end of the world http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/17/firewire-isnt-alone-a-brief-history-of-features-apple-has-killed/ http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/17/firewire-isnt-alone-... I don't think I even need to link posts about powerpc, flash player, or the 30 pin connector
ProAm 10y ago
> This is the established course for Apple. Take it or leave it. Umm no, share holders and the board definitely has a voice and I think we are not too far away from Tim leaving as CEO. Normally they'd give a guy like this a year maybe 18 months to right the ship, the only reason why it would be longer at Apple is because their development and release cycle is absurdly long. If it takes 3+ years to upgrade each product line, he might get 3 more years at the helm before they politely oust him.
- dottrap 10y ago
  Tim Cook has performed well for share holders. He has led Apple to record shattering profits, huge cash surpluses, and even in years like this where they came in under target, they still dominated in profits relative to their peers. For share holders, the pressure on Tim Cook is not for him to step down. The pressure on Tim Cook by many share holders is to focus only on iPhone and for him to abandon the Mac, Apple TV, and other things that are not considered material to the profits of the company. We saw this before during the iPod domination years. Vocal share holders wanted Steve Jobs to ditch the Mac and focus only on iPod.
  - ProAm 10y ago
    But I think the smart share holders are very weary of Apple moving into the Ballmer era. MS was in the same boat, hugely profitable but drifting into a technical no mans land where people lost interest in the platform and do not care to give them a second chance once viable other options are available. Apple is absolutely still a money printing machine, but they are skating on thin ice with product quality and innovation. With a new CEO Apple will still be a money printing machine, but maybe get some of its mojo back.
    - olkid 10y ago
      Agreed. I applaud cnbc for linking to Steve Blank's article "why Tim Cook is Steve Ballmer"
    - icanhackit 10y ago
PopsiclePete 10y ago
>This is the established course for Apple. Take it or leave it. Heh. No. That's not how publicly traded companies work. Tim Cook is not an Autocrat.
spaceisballer 10y ago
I think that people just want Tim Cook to be Steve Jobs. However Steve even wanted Tim to come in and do what Tim does.
jrs235 10y ago
Operations tend to focus on and optimize for efficiency (doing things right). Steve Jobs at CEO was a visionary and was focused on effectiveness (doing the right thing(s)). What has happened since Tim took over is, and should have been, expected.
serge2k 10y ago
Is being an ops guy an excuse for letting their software quality drop? I think the hardware design issues are a result of the change in dynamics with Ive and Jobs, but quality issues aren't really excusable.
CodeWriter23 10y ago
I'm pretty sure Steve was counting on them keeping Forstall as part of the team. He kind of was Steve Jr. when it came to making people cry and pushing them to reach beyond what they think they are capable of. But Tim and Jonny (and maybe Craig) didn't like it.

athenot 10y ago

The unfortunate part of this is that while a crazy product-driven visionnary needs a solid Operations leader to deliver the product, an Operations head will not suffer having a crazy product wildcard among his ranks. So this is a one-way transition from creative chaos to predictable stability.

kasey_junk 10y ago
Is there any evidence at all to back up this assertion? Why in the world would you assume that an operations head can't see the value of product driven visionaries, but the reverse is true? I have worked several times for operational leaders who have valued and cultivated visionary product thinking.

rapsey 10y ago

> Their product line has slimed, they have clear and concise build processes, and are still sitting on a mound of cash. The mac line is regressing in terms of hardware and software. While they used to have one of the best mobile dev environments, they now have the worst development environment. XCode is a bigger mess every release. Every macOS has more bugs then the last.

tptacek 10y ago
The Mac line is regressing according to people who bought the first iteration of a new Mac product, violating a cardinal rule in place since the Titanium Powerbook. To my eyes, this is more like adherence to a time-honored Apple tradition.
- deong 10y ago
  When the second generation won't exist for half a decade, I don't think the old rules are still in effect.
- rapsey 10y ago
  Software is getting less reliable as well.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    You are not going to convince someone who ran 10.0 that we have reached some unprecedented low in Apple software quality.
    - johansch 10y ago
      At that time they had a proper excuse though - it was brand new, they had financial issues, their old OS was antiquated so they had to rush, etc, etc. They then worked diligently for like a decade to reach a peak in terms of features, design and quality around the time of Steve's death in 2011. Now they don't really have any excuses.
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      Sun did an rewrite and upgrade of Solaris into version 10 with quite a bit of reliability. All that work cost just under $300 million. Apple has over 100x that money. You'd think they could at least afford the SDL & static analysis Microsoft was using if not a total rewrite of Mac OS X into the greatest OS ever made. They also have differentiators of usability, cool factor, UNIX support & privacy given Microsoft's turn with recent Windows. There's also a software ecosystem to further monetize & develop. Apple is screwing up big time in letting Mac OS languish.

wavefunction 10y ago

You'd think their OS releases would be decent but Mavericks and Yosemite sucked. Mavericks, ostensibly an update to include their ebooks platform caused my macbook pro to shut-down at random times and force me into quasi disk-repair to start the computer back up again. It was by-far the worst experience with a computer I've ever had, and I started out on 286s many moons ago so I seen some chit...

ihuman 10y ago
What does this comment have to do with the one you replied to? Instead of adding to the conversation about Cook using what he learned as COO under Jobs, you're complaining about software updates.
misnome 10y ago
And the windows 10 anniversary update literally caused my computer to freeze for up to 30 seconds every time I tried to interact with the task bar. These things happen with all companies.

agumonkey 10y ago

I wonder if they discussed the phase Apple is entering right now though. I agree with you that Jobs probably understood 100% what Cook at the head would mean, and did it willingly; IMO to ensure a long and smooth ride of the previous era successes. Now did they have plans in mind for long term ..

devoply 10y ago

Operations will not keep Apple alive. I mean Jobs was a genius in knowing what people want, but he wasn't good at knowing how to replace himself. It's outside his abilities just like it's Cook's abilities to be creative or to know what people want. Operations people are good for operations, and nothing else. And usually hated by many people in the company for the policies they force on the company in order to improve the bottom line.

dottrap 10y ago

> he's not a tech guy Well, he kind of is, but not in a way that appeals to most tech geek crowds. He has a degree in Industrial Engineering which (defined by Wikipedia): "work to eliminate waste of time, money, materials, man-hours, machine time, energy and other resources that do not generate value". Engineering to make things more efficient and reduce waste may not be "tech sexy", but to make it happen involves real technology and engineering.

John23832 10y ago
True, but it seems his focus is more process engineering than what you and I would consider "techie".
ProAm 10y ago
It took an Industrial Engineer to get rid of the headphone jack.
- bluejekyll 10y ago
  Honestly, the headphone jack while ubiquitous, is an ancient interface. My biggest issue with it's removal is that they didn't replace it with another analog interface. I believe that the DAC should live in the phone, leaving the headphone to merely to deal with a simple analog signal. I haven't jumped into the wireless bandwagon, bc the wire has never bothered me. On top of that I have a great battery and DAC in the phone already, I really don't want to be bothered with charging one more thing. If they had adopted a new standard interface that would have been great. Hell I would even be ok with it being usbc if that meant that the jack was standard. It's this non-standard interface that has me considering not buying a new iPhone. I don't care about the loss of the analog jack as much as the non-standard wired option that's left.
  - ProAm 10y ago
    > the headphone jack while ubiquitous, is an ancient interface Ancient, but MASSIVELY used, and affordable. There are finally high quality affordable wired headphones out there that I can use between multiple devices. Removing it forces people to spend significantly more money on a ancillary accessory that is not guaranteed to work across multiple devices. It was a money grab.

91bananas 10y ago

> Their product line has slimed Possible Freudian slip?

simonh 10y ago

> While the creative/user facing side has been lack luster I just don't see it. 5K and retina wide colour gamut displays, the aggressively lightweight MacBook design, new Mac Pros with an entirely new touch interface system, new keyboard mechanism and new hinge mechanism, continuity, a new graphics API subsystem (Metal), a brand new programming language. Then you have the Apple Watch. Which area exactly do you think they are lacking in? What other computer manufacturer or OS vendor is out-innovating Apple? Microsoft Surface? Bought-in commodity touch tech and 5400 RPM hard drives. If you compare the last 6 years with the period between the introduction of the iPod and the introduction of the iPhone, the last 6 years easily wins in terms of new innovative product releases and updates.

John23832 10y ago
>>(depending on if you ask the average consumer or a techie) There are definitely people who feel left out by Apple. As evident by the numerous blog post and talks on the internet.
- simonh 10y ago
  If the internet were to be believed, the iPhone was a marketing-lead fad with no chance of success and every month since 2007 a new reason gets trotted out for their impending doom. Meanwhile actual sales, customer satisfaction ratings and margins climb ever higher. All of which drives the haters ever more cranky, hence all the blog posts.
  - John23832 10y ago
    None of what you said matters. I said in my previous comment (and was implied in the OP) that people feel left out by Apple. The only proof I need for that is one person write a blog post saying that they feel left out by Apple, which we've definitely seen.
    - Caprinicus 10y ago
      It matters because people writing angry blog posts because apple leaves someone out has happened at every iteration of every apple product ever. Apple removing the firewire port was the end of the world. http://appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/jobs_responds_to_outrage_over_macbooks_missing_firewire http://appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/16/jobs_responds_to_o... Apple removing the matte screen option was a the end of the world http://www.macworld.com/article/1136061/matte_laptops.html http://www.macworld.com/article/1136061/matte_laptops.html Using USB instead of ADB, SCSI and GeoPort and ditching floppy drives was the end of the world http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/17/firewire-isnt-alone-a-brief-history-of-features-apple-has-killed/ http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/17/firewire-isnt-alone-... I don't think I even need to link posts about powerpc, flash player, or the 30 pin connector

ProAm 10y ago

> This is the established course for Apple. Take it or leave it. Umm no, share holders and the board definitely has a voice and I think we are not too far away from Tim leaving as CEO. Normally they'd give a guy like this a year maybe 18 months to right the ship, the only reason why it would be longer at Apple is because their development and release cycle is absurdly long. If it takes 3+ years to upgrade each product line, he might get 3 more years at the helm before they politely oust him.

dottrap 10y ago
Tim Cook has performed well for share holders. He has led Apple to record shattering profits, huge cash surpluses, and even in years like this where they came in under target, they still dominated in profits relative to their peers. For share holders, the pressure on Tim Cook is not for him to step down. The pressure on Tim Cook by many share holders is to focus only on iPhone and for him to abandon the Mac, Apple TV, and other things that are not considered material to the profits of the company. We saw this before during the iPod domination years. Vocal share holders wanted Steve Jobs to ditch the Mac and focus only on iPod.
- ProAm 10y ago
  But I think the smart share holders are very weary of Apple moving into the Ballmer era. MS was in the same boat, hugely profitable but drifting into a technical no mans land where people lost interest in the platform and do not care to give them a second chance once viable other options are available. Apple is absolutely still a money printing machine, but they are skating on thin ice with product quality and innovation. With a new CEO Apple will still be a money printing machine, but maybe get some of its mojo back.
  - olkid 10y ago
    Agreed. I applaud cnbc for linking to Steve Blank's article "why Tim Cook is Steve Ballmer"
  - icanhackit 10y ago

PopsiclePete 10y ago

>This is the established course for Apple. Take it or leave it. Heh. No. That's not how publicly traded companies work. Tim Cook is not an Autocrat.

spaceisballer 10y ago

I think that people just want Tim Cook to be Steve Jobs. However Steve even wanted Tim to come in and do what Tim does.

jrs235 10y ago

Operations tend to focus on and optimize for efficiency (doing things right). Steve Jobs at CEO was a visionary and was focused on effectiveness (doing the right thing(s)). What has happened since Tim took over is, and should have been, expected.

serge2k 10y ago

Is being an ops guy an excuse for letting their software quality drop? I think the hardware design issues are a result of the change in dynamics with Ive and Jobs, but quality issues aren't really excusable.

CodeWriter23 10y ago

I'm pretty sure Steve was counting on them keeping Forstall as part of the team. He kind of was Steve Jr. when it came to making people cry and pushing them to reach beyond what they think they are capable of. But Tim and Jonny (and maybe Craig) didn't like it.