6 ms·

The fluidity of language doesn't get around the fact that it's perfectly possible to incorrectly use phrases and words.

by anjc 10y ago

Dylan16807 10y ago
An idiom does not own the words inside of it. You're still allowed to use the same words for their literal meaning. Sure, the word 'for' is omitted, but that's acceptable usage. Note that "begging" in this context is likely a mistranslation in the first place. Therefore using it to actually mean "begging for" is less incorrect than the idiom.
- somestag 10y ago
  Yes, it's no worse than beg your pardon or beg forgiveness. In fact, omitting "for" is so common after the word "beg" that it could be considered standard (correct) English.
umanwizard 10y ago
Yeah, if I use "dog" to mean "cat", that's incorrect, since it goes against consensus and nobody would understand it. "Beg the question" is fine: it means what 99% of native English speakers believe it means, and everybody understands it.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  There are many terms that 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. Even may people think they know what they're saying or hearing but they don't because there are two distinct things they can't tell apart. Also, it's a less intuitive way to say "suggests" the question. Begs implies something about unequal power structures, and requests, etc. I understand that I need to be aware of what people might mean, but I'm in tech - I already see that everywhere. Maybe it's a regionalism but many people here call an entire computer a hard drive. I need to know what they want even though they can't ask for it. But yet, they're wrong and there's a lot that could go wrong for them because of their sloppy language. Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right?
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    > There are many terms 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? > In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. "Bug" means an error in computer software; it also means "insect". Neither is wrong. Terms mean the same thing all the time and context disambiguates perfectly fine. > many people here call an entire computer a hard drive Not a good analogy for several reasons: (1) both of those are from the same field so context can't disambiguate, (2) there's no widespread consensus that "hard drive" means "computer". In practice most people would misunderstand. > Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right? Wow, I don't mean to be rude but this sounds extremely smug to me. I'm not fighting for my right to be wrong, because I'm not wrong.
    - anjc 10y ago
      > Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? Incorrect based on the definition of the word/phrase. Just because most Americans say "I could care less", for example, doesn't mean it's being used/said correctly, and saying that it's ok because language is fluid doesn't get around the fact that it is incorrect.
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        > Incorrect based on the definition of the word/phrase. You are missing my point. WHAT definition? Where does it come from? Says who? (By the way, if we're going to trust definitions, Google's lists the definition of "beg the question" that you are advocating for only third. https://imgur.com/a/zh6bJ https://imgur.com/a/zh6bJ )
        EdHominem 10y ago
        > > "I couldn't care less" > WHAT definition? Where does it come from? Says who? The literal meaning of the words. If you couldn't care less, your caring is at zero. If you could care less you must currently care more than zero. But that's not even really our point... Rather than playing this silly game where you declare the majority view (Yay 51%) correct, why not just avoid things that people use incorrectly? Why go our of your way to join them? Most everyone who'd use the incorrect form would understand the correct form, so you're not even making yourself more understandable to them. Why are you so fixated on "Begs the Question" that you don't use any other combination of words from the entire language to describe that phenomenon? The odds that you independently arrived at this phrase are infinitesimal.

The fluidity of language doesn't get around the fact that it's perfectly possible to incorrectly use phrases and words.

by anjc 10y ago

The fluidity of language doesn't get around the fact that it's perfectly possible to incorrectly use phrases and words.

An idiom does not own the words inside of it. You're still allowed to use the same words for their literal meaning. Sure, the word 'for' is omitted, but that's acceptable usage. Note that "begging" in this context is likely a mistranslation in the first place. Therefore using it to actually mean "begging for" is less incorrect than the idiom.

somestag 10y ago
Yes, it's no worse than beg your pardon or beg forgiveness. In fact, omitting "for" is so common after the word "beg" that it could be considered standard (correct) English.

umanwizard 10y ago

Yeah, if I use "dog" to mean "cat", that's incorrect, since it goes against consensus and nobody would understand it. "Beg the question" is fine: it means what 99% of native English speakers believe it means, and everybody understands it.

EdHominem 10y ago
There are many terms that 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. Even may people think they know what they're saying or hearing but they don't because there are two distinct things they can't tell apart. Also, it's a less intuitive way to say "suggests" the question. Begs implies something about unequal power structures, and requests, etc. I understand that I need to be aware of what people might mean, but I'm in tech - I already see that everywhere. Maybe it's a regionalism but many people here call an entire computer a hard drive. I need to know what they want even though they can't ask for it. But yet, they're wrong and there's a lot that could go wrong for them because of their sloppy language. Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right?
- umanwizard 10y ago
  > There are many terms 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? > In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. "Bug" means an error in computer software; it also means "insect". Neither is wrong. Terms mean the same thing all the time and context disambiguates perfectly fine. > many people here call an entire computer a hard drive Not a good analogy for several reasons: (1) both of those are from the same field so context can't disambiguate, (2) there's no widespread consensus that "hard drive" means "computer". In practice most people would misunderstand. > Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right? Wow, I don't mean to be rude but this sounds extremely smug to me. I'm not fighting for my right to be wrong, because I'm not wrong.
  - anjc 10y ago
    > Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? Incorrect based on the definition of the word/phrase. Just because most Americans say "I could care less", for example, doesn't mean it's being used/said correctly, and saying that it's ok because language is fluid doesn't get around the fact that it is incorrect.
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      > Incorrect based on the definition of the word/phrase. You are missing my point. WHAT definition? Where does it come from? Says who? (By the way, if we're going to trust definitions, Google's lists the definition of "beg the question" that you are advocating for only third. https://imgur.com/a/zh6bJ https://imgur.com/a/zh6bJ )
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        > > "I couldn't care less" > WHAT definition? Where does it come from? Says who? The literal meaning of the words. If you couldn't care less, your caring is at zero. If you could care less you must currently care more than zero. But that's not even really our point... Rather than playing this silly game where you declare the majority view (Yay 51%) correct, why not just avoid things that people use incorrectly? Why go our of your way to join them? Most everyone who'd use the incorrect form would understand the correct form, so you're not even making yourself more understandable to them. Why are you so fixated on "Begs the Question" that you don't use any other combination of words from the entire language to describe that phenomenon? The odds that you independently arrived at this phrase are infinitesimal.