5 ms·

In a doggy dog world, people will use expressions despite not knowing the origin or meaning of them.

Dylan16807 10y ago
That's a word substitution that doesn't make sense in and of itself. The 'misuse' of "begs the question" has a meaning that logically follows from the words.
- somestag 10y ago
  In fact, I'd say that the "misuse" actually makes more logical/linguistic sense than the "correct" meaning. I've been knowingly (mis)using begs the question to roughly mean suggests the question ever since I learned the "real" meaning. If anyone ever challenges me on it, I just point out that I'm using the words for their actual English meanings—not as an idiom. Unlike so many other language mistakes, this one actually works.
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    Why not just say "Suggests the question" then? I've never understood why people will fight so hard to justify doing something incorrect when a easier, and better answer staring them in the face.
    - Dylan16807 10y ago
      Begging is more emotive, and gets across that the question pertains to an important consequence of the statement.
    - somestag 10y ago
      Because the word "begs" is easier to say than the word "suggests," partly because it's one syllable instead of three. It's easier, it's better, and it's the phrase I want to use. (It's also more correct than suggests for what I'm trying to say.) But really, since I'm using the words for their correct English meanings, I don't see why I have to justify my use at all. I'm not fighting to justify something incorrect; the people correcting me are the ones who are wrong, and they're the ones who then go on to try so hard to justify their incorrect opinion when an easier and better solution would be to just let me use the words for their actual definitions. This is not a problem unique to this idiom; people often forget that words have general English meanings when there's also a technical meaning for the word in question. For example, some people have made it their personal crusade to claim that backers on Kickstarter are not investing anything because they don't receive any ownership in return for their money. These people are wrong. It's true that by the word's finance definition no investment is taking place, but by the word's English definition they are absolutely correct to say it is an investment (just like one might invest in their college education). Obviously that example has nothing to do with the idiom at hand, but considering how often people make this mistake, I have no problem standing my ground on "begs the question" because I refuse to be limited by other people's inability to crack open a dictionary.
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        > But really, since I'm using the words for their correct English meanings, I don't see why I have to justify my use at all. I'm not fighting to justify something incorrect; Ehh, somewhat. Why did you pick beg instead of some other similar word? Probably because you heard the original expression and decided to borrow it. It's unlikely you were just thinking one day of how to describe this thing where an answer really raises more questions and said, "Hey I know, I'll call it begging the question!" > I have no problem standing my ground on "begs the question" because I refuse to be limited by other people's inability to crack open a dictionary. Which if they opened, would show them a contradictory meaning. But not drastically contradictory where it'd be obvious - just subtly not what you meant. > For example, some people have made it their personal crusade to claim that backers on Kickstarter are not investing anything because they don't receive any ownership in return for their money. These people are wrong. It's true that by the word's finance definition no investment is taking place, but by the word's English definition they are absolutely correct to say it is an investment (just like one might invest in their college education). It's more that they don't receive anything back, except maybe a product, which we call "buying". If you personally said to me - I'm investing in VR for the future by buying an Occulus I wouldn't blink, but when a company does it, it does suggest that they're trying to blur the line. Especially given how many people seem to misunderstand the deal... I'd call shenanigans on Kickstarter's usage, but not yours. > Because the word "begs" is easier to say than the word "suggests," partly because it's one syllable instead of three. It's easier, it's better, and it's the phrase I want to use. (It's also more correct than suggests for what I'm trying to say.) Yeah, for me it's exactly not right. Begging is something weak things do to get something. It brings to mind prisoners and cute puppies. It suggests many things that I don't mean and doesn't get at what I'd be trying to say. Maybe it just happens to fit 100% to what you want, but in almost every case I've seen of someone borrowing a term for something else, it's more that people just don't understand the subtleties (or they don't apply in their domain) of the phrases. And frankly, you seem like you've got an "I can do what I want" chip on your shoulder which may explain your choice more than strict understandability criteria.
        somestag 10y ago
        I think we've both made our points, but there are two/three last things I want to say: 1. The word beg only suggests a position of weakness in one context. Although that's how it's most commonly used, it's completely correct (and not uncommon) to use it as a synonym for "ask" if you want to imply a stronger request--check out the second definition in Merriam-Webster for formal evidence if you need it (it's not obscure or archaic). I'm normally all for choosing words based on understandability, but since far more people understand my meaning of the phrase than the "true" meaning, I'd say that the people using the idiom (rather than the words themselves) are the ones who have an ulterior motive other than understandability. 1b. I think it's extremely silly to ask me why I used one word instead of another closely related word. Yes, words have near-synonyms, and I could just ask easily ask you why you're not using my word instead. I know you're trying to imply I have an ulterior motive (that I'm doing it just to be contrarian or to feel right or to win an argument or whatever), but that's a weak way to do it since "I like it better this way" is all the justification anyone needs for using a word that isn't outright misleading or insulting. What you're really saying is that you would make a different stylistic choice, which is not much of an argument at all. 2. The "chip on my shoulder" is only in response to you telling me I'm fighting hard to justify something incorrect, which is quite frankly insulting (and, as I said, an incorrect thing to say in its own right, since the dictionary agrees with me, regardless of whether or not you think I have an ulterior motive). This very specific situation (when someone rebukes someone else because they think the other person is ignorant, when it is they themselves that are ignorant) is a huge pet peeve of mine, and it upsets me when people double-down on that position after being shown their misunderstanding. Of course, they're the ones who have convinced themselves that it is the other person who misunderstood and is doubling down, so that just compounds the insult.

That's a word substitution that doesn't make sense in and of itself. The 'misuse' of "begs the question" has a meaning that logically follows from the words.

somestag 10y ago
In fact, I'd say that the "misuse" actually makes more logical/linguistic sense than the "correct" meaning. I've been knowingly (mis)using begs the question to roughly mean suggests the question ever since I learned the "real" meaning. If anyone ever challenges me on it, I just point out that I'm using the words for their actual English meanings—not as an idiom. Unlike so many other language mistakes, this one actually works.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  Why not just say "Suggests the question" then? I've never understood why people will fight so hard to justify doing something incorrect when a easier, and better answer staring them in the face.
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    Begging is more emotive, and gets across that the question pertains to an important consequence of the statement.
  - somestag 10y ago
    Because the word "begs" is easier to say than the word "suggests," partly because it's one syllable instead of three. It's easier, it's better, and it's the phrase I want to use. (It's also more correct than suggests for what I'm trying to say.) But really, since I'm using the words for their correct English meanings, I don't see why I have to justify my use at all. I'm not fighting to justify something incorrect; the people correcting me are the ones who are wrong, and they're the ones who then go on to try so hard to justify their incorrect opinion when an easier and better solution would be to just let me use the words for their actual definitions. This is not a problem unique to this idiom; people often forget that words have general English meanings when there's also a technical meaning for the word in question. For example, some people have made it their personal crusade to claim that backers on Kickstarter are not investing anything because they don't receive any ownership in return for their money. These people are wrong. It's true that by the word's finance definition no investment is taking place, but by the word's English definition they are absolutely correct to say it is an investment (just like one might invest in their college education). Obviously that example has nothing to do with the idiom at hand, but considering how often people make this mistake, I have no problem standing my ground on "begs the question" because I refuse to be limited by other people's inability to crack open a dictionary.
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      > But really, since I'm using the words for their correct English meanings, I don't see why I have to justify my use at all. I'm not fighting to justify something incorrect; Ehh, somewhat. Why did you pick beg instead of some other similar word? Probably because you heard the original expression and decided to borrow it. It's unlikely you were just thinking one day of how to describe this thing where an answer really raises more questions and said, "Hey I know, I'll call it begging the question!" > I have no problem standing my ground on "begs the question" because I refuse to be limited by other people's inability to crack open a dictionary. Which if they opened, would show them a contradictory meaning. But not drastically contradictory where it'd be obvious - just subtly not what you meant. > For example, some people have made it their personal crusade to claim that backers on Kickstarter are not investing anything because they don't receive any ownership in return for their money. These people are wrong. It's true that by the word's finance definition no investment is taking place, but by the word's English definition they are absolutely correct to say it is an investment (just like one might invest in their college education). It's more that they don't receive anything back, except maybe a product, which we call "buying". If you personally said to me - I'm investing in VR for the future by buying an Occulus I wouldn't blink, but when a company does it, it does suggest that they're trying to blur the line. Especially given how many people seem to misunderstand the deal... I'd call shenanigans on Kickstarter's usage, but not yours. > Because the word "begs" is easier to say than the word "suggests," partly because it's one syllable instead of three. It's easier, it's better, and it's the phrase I want to use. (It's also more correct than suggests for what I'm trying to say.) Yeah, for me it's exactly not right. Begging is something weak things do to get something. It brings to mind prisoners and cute puppies. It suggests many things that I don't mean and doesn't get at what I'd be trying to say. Maybe it just happens to fit 100% to what you want, but in almost every case I've seen of someone borrowing a term for something else, it's more that people just don't understand the subtleties (or they don't apply in their domain) of the phrases. And frankly, you seem like you've got an "I can do what I want" chip on your shoulder which may explain your choice more than strict understandability criteria.
      - somestag 10y ago
        I think we've both made our points, but there are two/three last things I want to say: 1. The word beg only suggests a position of weakness in one context. Although that's how it's most commonly used, it's completely correct (and not uncommon) to use it as a synonym for "ask" if you want to imply a stronger request--check out the second definition in Merriam-Webster for formal evidence if you need it (it's not obscure or archaic). I'm normally all for choosing words based on understandability, but since far more people understand my meaning of the phrase than the "true" meaning, I'd say that the people using the idiom (rather than the words themselves) are the ones who have an ulterior motive other than understandability. 1b. I think it's extremely silly to ask me why I used one word instead of another closely related word. Yes, words have near-synonyms, and I could just ask easily ask you why you're not using my word instead. I know you're trying to imply I have an ulterior motive (that I'm doing it just to be contrarian or to feel right or to win an argument or whatever), but that's a weak way to do it since "I like it better this way" is all the justification anyone needs for using a word that isn't outright misleading or insulting. What you're really saying is that you would make a different stylistic choice, which is not much of an argument at all. 2. The "chip on my shoulder" is only in response to you telling me I'm fighting hard to justify something incorrect, which is quite frankly insulting (and, as I said, an incorrect thing to say in its own right, since the dictionary agrees with me, regardless of whether or not you think I have an ulterior motive). This very specific situation (when someone rebukes someone else because they think the other person is ignorant, when it is they themselves that are ignorant) is a huge pet peeve of mine, and it upsets me when people double-down on that position after being shown their misunderstanding. Of course, they're the ones who have convinced themselves that it is the other person who misunderstood and is doubling down, so that just compounds the insult.