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There's no objective standard for language usage, so it's perfectly possible for something to mean one thing in technical jargon of a specific field, and someth

There's no objective standard for language usage, so it's perfectly possible for something to mean one thing in technical jargon of a specific field, and something else in colloquial usage. Therefore, your claim that "begs the question" can't mean what 99% of people understand it to mean in colloquial conversation because it's a term of art that means something else in logic/rhetoric is invalid. By the way, this reasoning is independent of etymology. "Beg the question" may at some point have only meant what you claim it means now (I don't know if it did or not) -- but that doesn't change anything, even if it's the case.

anjc 10y ago
The fluidity of language doesn't get around the fact that it's perfectly possible to incorrectly use phrases and words.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  An idiom does not own the words inside of it. You're still allowed to use the same words for their literal meaning. Sure, the word 'for' is omitted, but that's acceptable usage. Note that "begging" in this context is likely a mistranslation in the first place. Therefore using it to actually mean "begging for" is less incorrect than the idiom.
  - somestag 10y ago
    Yes, it's no worse than beg your pardon or beg forgiveness. In fact, omitting "for" is so common after the word "beg" that it could be considered standard (correct) English.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  Yeah, if I use "dog" to mean "cat", that's incorrect, since it goes against consensus and nobody would understand it. "Beg the question" is fine: it means what 99% of native English speakers believe it means, and everybody understands it.
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    There are many terms that 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. Even may people think they know what they're saying or hearing but they don't because there are two distinct things they can't tell apart. Also, it's a less intuitive way to say "suggests" the question. Begs implies something about unequal power structures, and requests, etc. I understand that I need to be aware of what people might mean, but I'm in tech - I already see that everywhere. Maybe it's a regionalism but many people here call an entire computer a hard drive. I need to know what they want even though they can't ask for it. But yet, they're wrong and there's a lot that could go wrong for them because of their sloppy language. Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right?
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      > There are many terms 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? > In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. "Bug" means an error in computer software; it also means "insect". Neither is wrong. Terms mean the same thing all the time and context disambiguates perfectly fine. > many people here call an entire computer a hard drive Not a good analogy for several reasons: (1) both of those are from the same field so context can't disambiguate, (2) there's no widespread consensus that "hard drive" means "computer". In practice most people would misunderstand. > Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right? Wow, I don't mean to be rude but this sounds extremely smug to me. I'm not fighting for my right to be wrong, because I'm not wrong.
      - anjc 10y ago
        > Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? Incorrect based on the definition of the word/phrase. Just because most Americans say "I could care less", for example, doesn't mean it's being used/said correctly, and saying that it's ok because language is fluid doesn't get around the fact that it is incorrect.

anjc 10y ago

The fluidity of language doesn't get around the fact that it's perfectly possible to incorrectly use phrases and words.

Dylan16807 10y ago
An idiom does not own the words inside of it. You're still allowed to use the same words for their literal meaning. Sure, the word 'for' is omitted, but that's acceptable usage. Note that "begging" in this context is likely a mistranslation in the first place. Therefore using it to actually mean "begging for" is less incorrect than the idiom.
- somestag 10y ago
  Yes, it's no worse than beg your pardon or beg forgiveness. In fact, omitting "for" is so common after the word "beg" that it could be considered standard (correct) English.
umanwizard 10y ago
Yeah, if I use "dog" to mean "cat", that's incorrect, since it goes against consensus and nobody would understand it. "Beg the question" is fine: it means what 99% of native English speakers believe it means, and everybody understands it.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  There are many terms that 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. Even may people think they know what they're saying or hearing but they don't because there are two distinct things they can't tell apart. Also, it's a less intuitive way to say "suggests" the question. Begs implies something about unequal power structures, and requests, etc. I understand that I need to be aware of what people might mean, but I'm in tech - I already see that everywhere. Maybe it's a regionalism but many people here call an entire computer a hard drive. I need to know what they want even though they can't ask for it. But yet, they're wrong and there's a lot that could go wrong for them because of their sloppy language. Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right?
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    > There are many terms 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? > In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. "Bug" means an error in computer software; it also means "insect". Neither is wrong. Terms mean the same thing all the time and context disambiguates perfectly fine. > many people here call an entire computer a hard drive Not a good analogy for several reasons: (1) both of those are from the same field so context can't disambiguate, (2) there's no widespread consensus that "hard drive" means "computer". In practice most people would misunderstand. > Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right? Wow, I don't mean to be rude but this sounds extremely smug to me. I'm not fighting for my right to be wrong, because I'm not wrong.
    - anjc 10y ago
      > Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? Incorrect based on the definition of the word/phrase. Just because most Americans say "I could care less", for example, doesn't mean it's being used/said correctly, and saying that it's ok because language is fluid doesn't get around the fact that it is incorrect.