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> while the increasing dominance of sophisticated traders begs the question of how long the juiciest arbitrage opportunities will last. Raises the question, no

by wtbob 10y ago

> while the increasing dominance of sophisticated traders begs the question of how long the juiciest arbitrage opportunities will last. Raises the question, not begs it. Begging the question would be to say, 'Bitcoin always generates profit, therefor it will always generate a profit.' Begging the question is assuming the consequent of the argument; raising a question is, well … raising one.

umanwizard 10y ago
There's no objective standard for language usage, so it's perfectly possible for something to mean one thing in technical jargon of a specific field, and something else in colloquial usage. Therefore, your claim that "begs the question" can't mean what 99% of people understand it to mean in colloquial conversation because it's a term of art that means something else in logic/rhetoric is invalid. By the way, this reasoning is independent of etymology. "Beg the question" may at some point have only meant what you claim it means now (I don't know if it did or not) -- but that doesn't change anything, even if it's the case.
- anjc 10y ago
  The fluidity of language doesn't get around the fact that it's perfectly possible to incorrectly use phrases and words.
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    An idiom does not own the words inside of it. You're still allowed to use the same words for their literal meaning. Sure, the word 'for' is omitted, but that's acceptable usage. Note that "begging" in this context is likely a mistranslation in the first place. Therefore using it to actually mean "begging for" is less incorrect than the idiom.
    - somestag 10y ago
      Yes, it's no worse than beg your pardon or beg forgiveness. In fact, omitting "for" is so common after the word "beg" that it could be considered standard (correct) English.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    Yeah, if I use "dog" to mean "cat", that's incorrect, since it goes against consensus and nobody would understand it. "Beg the question" is fine: it means what 99% of native English speakers believe it means, and everybody understands it.
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      There are many terms that 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. Even may people think they know what they're saying or hearing but they don't because there are two distinct things they can't tell apart. Also, it's a less intuitive way to say "suggests" the question. Begs implies something about unequal power structures, and requests, etc. I understand that I need to be aware of what people might mean, but I'm in tech - I already see that everywhere. Maybe it's a regionalism but many people here call an entire computer a hard drive. I need to know what they want even though they can't ask for it. But yet, they're wrong and there's a lot that could go wrong for them because of their sloppy language. Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right?
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        > There are many terms 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? > In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. "Bug" means an error in computer software; it also means "insect". Neither is wrong. Terms mean the same thing all the time and context disambiguates perfectly fine. > many people here call an entire computer a hard drive Not a good analogy for several reasons: (1) both of those are from the same field so context can't disambiguate, (2) there's no widespread consensus that "hard drive" means "computer". In practice most people would misunderstand. > Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right? Wow, I don't mean to be rude but this sounds extremely smug to me. I'm not fighting for my right to be wrong, because I'm not wrong.
DigitalJack 10y ago
People have been using begs the question "incorrectly" for decades. Which begs the question: Who, then, is wrong?
- heptathorp 10y ago
  In a doggy dog world, people will use expressions despite not knowing the origin or meaning of them.
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    That's a word substitution that doesn't make sense in and of itself. The 'misuse' of "begs the question" has a meaning that logically follows from the words.
    - somestag 10y ago
      In fact, I'd say that the "misuse" actually makes more logical/linguistic sense than the "correct" meaning. I've been knowingly (mis)using begs the question to roughly mean suggests the question ever since I learned the "real" meaning. If anyone ever challenges me on it, I just point out that I'm using the words for their actual English meanings—not as an idiom. Unlike so many other language mistakes, this one actually works.
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        Why not just say "Suggests the question" then? I've never understood why people will fight so hard to justify doing something incorrect when a easier, and better answer staring them in the face.
        Dylan16807 10y ago
        Begging is more emotive, and gets across that the question pertains to an important consequence of the statement.
        10y ago
vidarh 10y ago
I have, in nearly 35 years of using English, come across exactly 1 "correct" usage of "begs the question" outside of comments like yours correcting people. In other words: You're fighting a lost battle. I suspect if you put the two common uses of it to a representative sample of people, that the majority won't even know the original usage at this point.
- afarrell 10y ago
  The problem is that "begs the question" is a poor textual representation for what it means. "Assumes the conclusion" is a better affordance.
- _callcc 10y ago
  It largely depends on context--in politics/philosophy literature it's used quite often.
Chris2048 10y ago
I'm not sure that is the definition, I believe it's: to make a conclusion based on a premise that has no more support than the conclusion. i.e to introduce a premise begging to be questioned - that includes, of course, the assumption of a conclusion, (isn't that a different fallacy though? - circular reasoning) e.g.: > bitcoin is profitable, because bitcoin traders are doing well It pushes the argument somewhere (sometimes to a new claim; sometimes a consequence-of, or paraphrasing-of the original claim) but provides no argument for that direction either, begging for the new premise to be question just as much as the old, and otherwise providing no new clarity. This being abstracted to any obvious omission of information, or even abstractions such as situations themselves "begging the question" as if personified, is just an extension of the same semantics.
wodenokoto 10y ago
Maybe you should look it up in a dictionary [1,2] before acting like a wise-guy. The quoted sentence is the dictionary usage of the phrase. [1] http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/beg-the-question http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/beg-the-q... [2] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/beg_the_question https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/beg_the_questio...

by wtbob 10y ago

umanwizard 10y ago

There's no objective standard for language usage, so it's perfectly possible for something to mean one thing in technical jargon of a specific field, and something else in colloquial usage. Therefore, your claim that "begs the question" can't mean what 99% of people understand it to mean in colloquial conversation because it's a term of art that means something else in logic/rhetoric is invalid. By the way, this reasoning is independent of etymology. "Beg the question" may at some point have only meant what you claim it means now (I don't know if it did or not) -- but that doesn't change anything, even if it's the case.

anjc 10y ago
The fluidity of language doesn't get around the fact that it's perfectly possible to incorrectly use phrases and words.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  An idiom does not own the words inside of it. You're still allowed to use the same words for their literal meaning. Sure, the word 'for' is omitted, but that's acceptable usage. Note that "begging" in this context is likely a mistranslation in the first place. Therefore using it to actually mean "begging for" is less incorrect than the idiom.
  - somestag 10y ago
    Yes, it's no worse than beg your pardon or beg forgiveness. In fact, omitting "for" is so common after the word "beg" that it could be considered standard (correct) English.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  Yeah, if I use "dog" to mean "cat", that's incorrect, since it goes against consensus and nobody would understand it. "Beg the question" is fine: it means what 99% of native English speakers believe it means, and everybody understands it.
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    There are many terms that 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. Even may people think they know what they're saying or hearing but they don't because there are two distinct things they can't tell apart. Also, it's a less intuitive way to say "suggests" the question. Begs implies something about unequal power structures, and requests, etc. I understand that I need to be aware of what people might mean, but I'm in tech - I already see that everywhere. Maybe it's a regionalism but many people here call an entire computer a hard drive. I need to know what they want even though they can't ask for it. But yet, they're wrong and there's a lot that could go wrong for them because of their sloppy language. Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right?
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      > There are many terms 99% of people use incorrectly and they're still incorrect. Incorrect based on what standard? What standard for language correctness exists besides consensus? > In this case, "begs the question" is what something else is called. By conflating two things you get sloppy thinking. "Bug" means an error in computer software; it also means "insect". Neither is wrong. Terms mean the same thing all the time and context disambiguates perfectly fine. > many people here call an entire computer a hard drive Not a good analogy for several reasons: (1) both of those are from the same field so context can't disambiguate, (2) there's no widespread consensus that "hard drive" means "computer". In practice most people would misunderstand. > Rather than fighting for your right to be wrong, why not just be right? Wow, I don't mean to be rude but this sounds extremely smug to me. I'm not fighting for my right to be wrong, because I'm not wrong.

DigitalJack 10y ago

People have been using begs the question "incorrectly" for decades. Which begs the question: Who, then, is wrong?

heptathorp 10y ago
In a doggy dog world, people will use expressions despite not knowing the origin or meaning of them.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  That's a word substitution that doesn't make sense in and of itself. The 'misuse' of "begs the question" has a meaning that logically follows from the words.
  - somestag 10y ago
    In fact, I'd say that the "misuse" actually makes more logical/linguistic sense than the "correct" meaning. I've been knowingly (mis)using begs the question to roughly mean suggests the question ever since I learned the "real" meaning. If anyone ever challenges me on it, I just point out that I'm using the words for their actual English meanings—not as an idiom. Unlike so many other language mistakes, this one actually works.
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      Why not just say "Suggests the question" then? I've never understood why people will fight so hard to justify doing something incorrect when a easier, and better answer staring them in the face.
      - Dylan16807 10y ago
        Begging is more emotive, and gets across that the question pertains to an important consequence of the statement.
      - 10y ago

vidarh 10y ago

I have, in nearly 35 years of using English, come across exactly 1 "correct" usage of "begs the question" outside of comments like yours correcting people. In other words: You're fighting a lost battle. I suspect if you put the two common uses of it to a representative sample of people, that the majority won't even know the original usage at this point.

afarrell 10y ago
The problem is that "begs the question" is a poor textual representation for what it means. "Assumes the conclusion" is a better affordance.
_callcc 10y ago
It largely depends on context--in politics/philosophy literature it's used quite often.

Chris2048 10y ago

I'm not sure that is the definition, I believe it's: to make a conclusion based on a premise that has no more support than the conclusion. i.e to introduce a premise begging to be questioned - that includes, of course, the assumption of a conclusion, (isn't that a different fallacy though? - circular reasoning) e.g.: > bitcoin is profitable, because bitcoin traders are doing well It pushes the argument somewhere (sometimes to a new claim; sometimes a consequence-of, or paraphrasing-of the original claim) but provides no argument for that direction either, begging for the new premise to be question just as much as the old, and otherwise providing no new clarity. This being abstracted to any obvious omission of information, or even abstractions such as situations themselves "begging the question" as if personified, is just an extension of the same semantics.

wodenokoto 10y ago

Maybe you should look it up in a dictionary [1,2] before acting like a wise-guy. The quoted sentence is the dictionary usage of the phrase. [1] http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/beg-the-question http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/beg-the-q... [2] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/beg_the_question https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/beg_the_questio...