4 ms·

The advantage is that even with the insane housing costs I'm still able to save significant amounts of money. For example 2 years out of school a developer can

The advantage is that even with the insane housing costs I'm still able to save significant amounts of money. For example 2 years out of school a developer can command $160k salary at the best companies (and those companies have a lot of positions to fill). Assuming $3600 a month on rent you have about $65k after taxes. (I guestimated most of these calculations in 5 seconds so be easy on my math)

wavefunction 10y ago
I get that in a different part of the country, plus great music and culture and - SV culture. With a significant fraction of your salary.
pmiller2 10y ago
If $160k 2 years out of school is typical, I need to know where you work so I can apply[0]. :P In all seriousness, that is not a typical salary for the vast majority of people in the Bay Area. Not everyone is a software developer working for a company with money to burn. --- [0]: In spite of the smiley, this is also true.
- merkleee 10y ago
  Anyone who can get the title "senior" from multiple major tech employers can get that salary if they are competent at negotiating. That is where the market is in 2017. At top employers you can tack on another $100k in stock/bonus.
- binarysolo 10y ago
  That's a humblebrag, don't get baited. :P Yes you can get 160k 2 years out of school if you're a top student and/or have awesome GitHub/sideprojects and performed well at the company to own something, move up the chain, or are a cleverer bear than your average.
- friedman23 10y ago
  I explicitly mentioned best companies.
irrational 10y ago
But... you can also get six figure developer salaries outside of silicon valley in places that are significantly cheaper and with far cheaper taxes than California. And they are a lot more common than people I talk to from the Bay Area seem to think. It's almost like there is some sort of group think that believes that there aren't any well paying developer job in nice locations outside of the Bay Area.
- encoderer 10y ago
  There is a liquidity to the market here that is unmatched. Also, 200k plus here is not rare which I don't think you can say for many places.
  - irrational 10y ago
    Liquidity? You mean as in it is easy to find a different job? I guess that's good if you enjoy that sort of thing. But, I've been working a six figure developer job at the same company for the past 15 years and I'm thrilled that I don't have to worry about the liquidity of the market ;-)
    - encoderer 10y ago
      Here is the setup: Literally dozens of companies paying $150k+ (base) for engineers with experience. Upward pressure on wages and working conditions. Cross-pollination of lessons learned between companies. People always think about startups, but there is an army of engineers at profitable tech companies in the bay area that are well comped for work that generally is free of death-march conditions.
hibikir 10y ago
You'd be surprised at how close to those salaries you can get in the exact same companies, just not in their main campuses. I work for one of those, from home, with the same salary as bay area coworkers, but a 200K 4 bedroom house. There was a recent article here in HN about how Silicon Valley was hiring physicists. Oscar, the main name in that story, is a coworker of mine and he isn't working from the Bay area: he is working from Hawaii. Living in San Francisco is a legitimate choice, but the whole idea that you have to go live there to get the good salaries and work at the good companies is less and less true every year.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Isn't Hawaii the only place that would be more expensive than the Bay Area besides maybe manhattan?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  > he is working from Hawaii ie, one of the only places more expensive than the bay area. Not sure what point this proves...
  - aaronblohowiak 10y ago
    Not more expensive anymore
  - froindt 10y ago
    Even Hawaii has a gradient of pricing. General cost of living is more expensive than most places on the mainland because almost everything has to be brought in on a ship, but outside of the major tourist cities prices are more manageable.
  - prawn 10y ago
    I expect that the point is they're working remotely, not that they're working remotely from another expensive location.
froindt 10y ago
I ran some pretty extensive numbers on a sub-comment and don't want to repost the entire thing in reply to you. I estimated at $2,900/month rent in the valley and $900/month in the Midwest. Valley earned 160/year, Midwest at 80/year. My conclusion was that if everything froze and you could save all non-rent money (minus 20k for misc. other expenses), the end result would be pretty close. You'd have to commit to working in the valley fairly for about 4 years to save up for the downpayment (assuming you started at 0). After the valley developer gets the house, the numbers may swing substantially in their favor, however it's a long timeline for that to happen, and the housing prices have a fair chance of continuing to rise or for the housing bubble to burst. Full math: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13424430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13424430
- obstinate 10y ago
  160k total comp is still pretty early days, though. A senior engineer at Google will end up making about 250-300k. A staff engineer 300-400k. I have heard it can be far higher in the case of a highly valued specialty, or high leadership potential. It will be very difficult to ever command a salary like this as a programmer in the midwest.
  - froindt 10y ago
    You know, there may be a serious upside to living in the valley as a software developer if you stay there long enough. You're right about salaries in the Midwest never reaching that high. I'm not a developer, but it seems like it's a good gig if you've been there for a number of years. It seems like it would be difficult to get by for non-tech workers, either requiring a really long commute for a somewhat reasonable rent/mortgage or putting a huge percent of take-home pay into housing. Roughly how many years would it take to get to senior engineer or staff engineer?
    - obstinate 10y ago
      It took me I wanna say three years to reach senior and six to reach staff. This is uncommonly fast, but not way outside the ordinary distribution. I don't know what they're paying the kids these days, but I wouldn't be surprised if the entry level comp for a kid right out of school is topping out at $140k. The salaries at these levels don't start out at the top number. Like many other company, it is a band, so that you can continue receiving smaller raises for a few years after you are promoted.

wavefunction 10y ago

I get that in a different part of the country, plus great music and culture and - SV culture. With a significant fraction of your salary.

pmiller2 10y ago

If $160k 2 years out of school is typical, I need to know where you work so I can apply[0]. :P In all seriousness, that is not a typical salary for the vast majority of people in the Bay Area. Not everyone is a software developer working for a company with money to burn. --- [0]: In spite of the smiley, this is also true.

merkleee 10y ago
Anyone who can get the title "senior" from multiple major tech employers can get that salary if they are competent at negotiating. That is where the market is in 2017. At top employers you can tack on another $100k in stock/bonus.
binarysolo 10y ago
That's a humblebrag, don't get baited. :P Yes you can get 160k 2 years out of school if you're a top student and/or have awesome GitHub/sideprojects and performed well at the company to own something, move up the chain, or are a cleverer bear than your average.
friedman23 10y ago
I explicitly mentioned best companies.

irrational 10y ago

But... you can also get six figure developer salaries outside of silicon valley in places that are significantly cheaper and with far cheaper taxes than California. And they are a lot more common than people I talk to from the Bay Area seem to think. It's almost like there is some sort of group think that believes that there aren't any well paying developer job in nice locations outside of the Bay Area.

encoderer 10y ago
There is a liquidity to the market here that is unmatched. Also, 200k plus here is not rare which I don't think you can say for many places.
- irrational 10y ago
  Liquidity? You mean as in it is easy to find a different job? I guess that's good if you enjoy that sort of thing. But, I've been working a six figure developer job at the same company for the past 15 years and I'm thrilled that I don't have to worry about the liquidity of the market ;-)
  - encoderer 10y ago
    Here is the setup: Literally dozens of companies paying $150k+ (base) for engineers with experience. Upward pressure on wages and working conditions. Cross-pollination of lessons learned between companies. People always think about startups, but there is an army of engineers at profitable tech companies in the bay area that are well comped for work that generally is free of death-march conditions.

hibikir 10y ago

You'd be surprised at how close to those salaries you can get in the exact same companies, just not in their main campuses. I work for one of those, from home, with the same salary as bay area coworkers, but a 200K 4 bedroom house. There was a recent article here in HN about how Silicon Valley was hiring physicists. Oscar, the main name in that story, is a coworker of mine and he isn't working from the Bay area: he is working from Hawaii. Living in San Francisco is a legitimate choice, but the whole idea that you have to go live there to get the good salaries and work at the good companies is less and less true every year.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
Isn't Hawaii the only place that would be more expensive than the Bay Area besides maybe manhattan?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Domenic_S 10y ago
> he is working from Hawaii ie, one of the only places more expensive than the bay area. Not sure what point this proves...
- aaronblohowiak 10y ago
  Not more expensive anymore
- froindt 10y ago
  Even Hawaii has a gradient of pricing. General cost of living is more expensive than most places on the mainland because almost everything has to be brought in on a ship, but outside of the major tourist cities prices are more manageable.
- prawn 10y ago
  I expect that the point is they're working remotely, not that they're working remotely from another expensive location.

froindt 10y ago

I ran some pretty extensive numbers on a sub-comment and don't want to repost the entire thing in reply to you. I estimated at $2,900/month rent in the valley and $900/month in the Midwest. Valley earned 160/year, Midwest at 80/year. My conclusion was that if everything froze and you could save all non-rent money (minus 20k for misc. other expenses), the end result would be pretty close. You'd have to commit to working in the valley fairly for about 4 years to save up for the downpayment (assuming you started at 0). After the valley developer gets the house, the numbers may swing substantially in their favor, however it's a long timeline for that to happen, and the housing prices have a fair chance of continuing to rise or for the housing bubble to burst. Full math: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13424430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13424430

obstinate 10y ago
160k total comp is still pretty early days, though. A senior engineer at Google will end up making about 250-300k. A staff engineer 300-400k. I have heard it can be far higher in the case of a highly valued specialty, or high leadership potential. It will be very difficult to ever command a salary like this as a programmer in the midwest.
- froindt 10y ago
  You know, there may be a serious upside to living in the valley as a software developer if you stay there long enough. You're right about salaries in the Midwest never reaching that high. I'm not a developer, but it seems like it's a good gig if you've been there for a number of years. It seems like it would be difficult to get by for non-tech workers, either requiring a really long commute for a somewhat reasonable rent/mortgage or putting a huge percent of take-home pay into housing. Roughly how many years would it take to get to senior engineer or staff engineer?
  - obstinate 10y ago
    It took me I wanna say three years to reach senior and six to reach staff. This is uncommonly fast, but not way outside the ordinary distribution. I don't know what they're paying the kids these days, but I wouldn't be surprised if the entry level comp for a kid right out of school is topping out at $140k. The salaries at these levels don't start out at the top number. Like many other company, it is a band, so that you can continue receiving smaller raises for a few years after you are promoted.