6 ms·
Off-topic but.. "they"? Manning isn't a group of people. Just say "she", it's really easy.
by and0 10y ago
Off-topic but.. "they"? Manning isn't a group of people. Just say "she", it's really easy.
- khazhou 10y agoThey == people in govt with access to this info.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ForrestN 10y agoI don't know what Chelsea Manning's pronoun preferences are, but I have plenty of friends who prefer "they," which also happens to be the gender-neutral singular pronoun in English. For example: "Someone came by asking for me earlier? Did they give you a name?" Many people who do not identify as male or female prefer "they."
- and0 10y agoThat's a valid point, but if you don't know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history or prison sentence to know her preferred pronoun (or even read the article where it's made very clear) why even comment?
- mod 10y agoThe comment was on-topic and interesting. That's two reasons I can think of. Also, this is not a new story, so frankly it's easy to have relevant opinions on the topic while perhaps just doing a skim of the story.
- DanBC 10y agoYou've assumed the person using "they" did know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history and chose to use they as some kind of statement. You should probably be talking the the person who called her "guy", or the person who said she was forced to change gender as a punishment, (both in this thread) rather than the person who politely used "they" because they weren't sure whether to apply she to the time she was identified as male.
- ForrestN 10y agoSome of my trans/genderqueer friends go through long periods wherein they change their preferred pronouns, so when I don't know someone personally I try use "they" whenever I can in deference to the complexity of trans/queer experiences. My husband identifies as a man, but sometimes prefers to be referred to as "they," for example in all professional contexts. (They're an artist). Since I don't know Chelsea personally, and because they're also in what must be a deeply traumatic and confusing situation, replete with pressure to conform to newly acceptable narratives of transition like "man becomes woman," I think I instinctively wanted to use "they" in acknowledgment that we probably can't know for sure what would make them comfortable and happy from our present vantage, news reports aside. If I for some reason meet them one day, I'll be sure to confirm with them what they prefer.
- manarth 10y agoChelsea has publicly identified the preferred pronouns as "she/her/hers". [1] [1] http://www.glaad.org/blog/chelsea-mannings-name-and-pronouns-need-respect-not-clarification http://www.glaad.org/blog/chelsea-mannings-name-and-pronouns...
- gnaritas 10y agoSo what? You can't expect people to know that, this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense; you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use.
- manarth 10y agoYou can't expect people to know that I shared the link, so that people who weren't aware of Chelsea's preferred pronouns, could learn which pronouns she preferred. this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense; you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use. You're right to say that in general, I cannot control the words that people use, about me, or about others. But I do respect the choices that people make. If someone would prefer that I refer to them as "she" or "her", or "him" or "he", I will use that pronoun. And I would question: why would someone use an alternative pronoun, knowing that the person would prefer an alternative? Why would anyone choose to knowingly attack and hurt someone, purely for sake of labeling them with a pronoun that the person has identified as inappropriate? When someone has identified their preferred pronouns, it is entirely appropriate to use those pronouns, and it is inappropriate - even abusive - to deliberately choose to use an incorrect pronoun. I do state "deliberately choose to use", because there will inevitably be people who mistakenly use an incorrect pronoun, for lack of knowledge, but people who are aware of the correct pronouns and deliberately choose an incorrect pronoun are conducting a bullying, abusive attack, and should be stopped.
- ForrestN 10y agoYes. I would add that, at least in present cultural conditions, most people who are not cisgendered men or women are not treated well, are chronically misunderstood, and experience traumatic alienation from their surrounding culture, and even violence. Generally speaking we're not yet able to protect non-cis people nearly as well as we should. So in addition to the parent's clear and solid advice, please have some empathy. Respecting a person's wishes about referring to their identity can go a long way toward making them feel safe, and refusing to do so can add to a tremendous burden of pain.
- sandyarmstrong 10y agoPronouns are interesting. I have transgender friends who prefer "they". I like to use it as a gender-neutral pronoun when I can get away with it, and hope that usage becomes more acceptable as time passes.
- na85 10y agoThe word "they" has more than one meaning. One of those is for a person of indeterminate or unknown gender. For example I can and routinely do say things like "If that person wishes to do XYZ, then they must first do ABCD"
- adrienne 10y agoYes, but Ms. Manning's gender is neither indeterminate nor unknown. Ms. Manning is a woman, and she has publicly stated that her pronouns are she/her. This is not difficult information to find.
- na85 10y agoGuess what? Ms. Manning doesn't get to dictate how the English language works. "They" works just as well for her as it does for me or you. If Chelsea doesn't like it, well, she can take it up with the dictionary. A person can express a preference but their choice (oops, I used "they" again! be sure to downvote!) has no bearing on my choice of words.
- etjossem 10y ago> If Chelsea doesn't like it, well, she can take it up with the dictionary. On her behalf, let's call up Merriam-Webster. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbi... The only correct use of the singular-they is as "a pronoun of choice for someone who doesn’t identify as either male or female." You could use singular-they for "a person whose gender isn’t known or isn’t important in the context," but strictly speaking that would be grammatically incorrect. If - as you claim - you're eager to abide by prescriptive conventions of the English language, feel free to start using "she" when referring to Chelsea Manning.
- adrienne 10y agoDictionaries are reflections of usage rather than arbiters of it -- but yes, generally speaking, singular "they" is for use in situations where people's gender is ambiguous or unknown. And in particular, calling trans people "they" is often a tactic that is used to implicitly deny that they are "really" their gender.
- ythn 10y agoI love it when people pronoun-bully other people. It shows how progressive they are
- GrinningFool 10y agoI think in this case, it's raised that we know the subject's gender identity, so the use of gender-ambiguous "they" isn't necessary. Not out of any sense of pronoun policing or bullying - I suspect more because it scans weirdly when you have the information that it would normally abstract.
- ythn 10y ago> I think in this case, it's raised that we know the subject's gender identity What if we don't care about the subject's gender identity and are more interested in their biological identity?
- GrinningFool 10y agoOur language currently lacks the words that would let us refer to a person in a way that encapsulates both succinctly.
- sctb 10y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive comments like these. We're all here to have a civil conversation in which we can hope to learn something, and this kind of participation gets in the way of that.
- adventist 10y agoWell, if we want to be correct, he is not a she. Science.
- sctb 10y agoBeing correct cuts both ways, I'm afraid. If you'd like to offer an opinion on the matter we have to ask that it have some basis in reality. (This is not satisfied by uttering "Science.")
- wtbob 10y agoThe reality is that Mr. Manning possesses an X and a Y chromosome, that he has male genitalia, that he is at risk for prostate cancer, that he will never have ovarian cancer, that he was able to father children but was never able and will never be able to bear them: the reality is that he is a man, regardless of what he thinks. I'm not saying that rudely, or cruelly. I think that his condition — to feel to the core of his being that he is a woman, when every objective fact says that he is a man — must be truly horrible to experience, and that he deserves our sympathy and our kindness. To feel so alienated from one's own body is not something I can relate to, but it must be terribly unpleasant. As I've noted, I think it would probably be kind to treat him as a woman, and I would probably do so myself, since there's no reason for me to cause him any more distress than his condition already does. But the objective reality is misaligned with his perception.
- KirinDave 10y ago> The reality is that Mr. Manning possesses an X and a Y chromosome, that he has male genitalia, that he is at risk for prostate cancer, that he will never have ovarian cancer, that he was able to father children but was never able and will never be able to bear them: the reality is that he is a man, regardless of what he thinks. See, the problem with this completely absurd argument is that for any given item on this list, I can find someone you'd happily agree is "a biological woman" who meets or has met these criterion at some point in their lives, including that "male genitalia" bit. > I'm not saying that rudely, or cruelly. You can assert this, but it is both rude and cruel to those who receive it. Communication is a two way street but you're taking your half of the road out of the middle and asking why everyone is so mad. > But the objective reality is misaligned with his perception. Would that the western world viewed gender objectively. Sadly, we do not. If we did, the concept of a strict gender binary would be laughed out of the room.
- lobster_johnson 10y agoWikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they) covers this topic quite well.
- rthomas6 10y agoSorry. I didn't know which pronoun to use because I didn't know if gender changes apply retroactively, grammatically speaking. I'm having trouble knowing which one to use to write this post, too. At the time of the leaks Chelsea Manning identified as Bradley, a male. Is it politically correct to use 'she' for all past references, including the times where Chelsea Manning identified as male? Or would it make more sense to use 'he' when Chelsea Manning identified as male, and 'she' when Chelsea Manning identifies as female?
- manarth 10y agoI agree. I would like to see people addressed by the pronoun that they prefer. For most people, their presentation gives a strong enough suggestion that I would generally use the "expected" pronouns, for their apparent presentation. In the absence of a preference (or with people who have presented ambiguity) and no apparent expected default, I tend to use "they" (as it's as neutral a pronoun as I know how to use). In the case of Chelsea, she has demonstrated a clear preference [1], so we should all be using the pronouns that she has chosen. [1] http://www.glaad.org/blog/chelsea-mannings-name-and-pronouns-need-respect-not-clarification http://www.glaad.org/blog/chelsea-mannings-name-and-pronouns...
- sctb 10y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13421564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13421564 and marked it off-topic.