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Inkscape on the other has started to show gradual decline in the UI department. For example every time you open a tool (the small dialogs on the right) all oth

by pawadu 10y ago

Inkscape on the other has started to show gradual decline in the UI department. For example every time you open a tool (the small dialogs on the right) all others will collapse. Since you normally jump back and forth between these tools during drawing you have to ask yourself what went on in their heads when they decided to make this change.

Freak_NL 10y ago
Have you tried using keyboard shortcuts to access the panels? I often switch between Layers, Align and Distribute, and Transform, but always use the keyboard shortcuts. Inkscape's UI is a point deserving of attention (the GIMP has a more elegant UI), but I can't say that I've found it to be in decline (on the contrary).
- AimHere 10y ago
  > the GIMP has a more elegant UI GIMP must have come a long way for those words to form a sentence! Not that it was ever necessarily inelegant, but GIMP's reputation has always suffered from a big chunk of it's natural audience being experienced Photoshop users who find the transition jarring, and trash the UI for that reason. Hearing someone praise the interface is a bit unusual, still!
  - mathw 10y ago
    FWIW I find Photoshop more intimidating and confusing than GIMP, because I never learned to use Photoshop. If you're looking at GIMP as something to attract Photoshop users, sure, the UI is bad because it's not the same as Photoshop. Sure, there are places you can look at Photoshop and say "wow, that's so much better for productive use" (ignoring feature differences where we know Photoshop is ahead of course). But this thing about GIMP having a UI that's _objectively_ bad is just unsupportable IMO.
    - Joeboy 10y ago
      > But this thing about GIMP having a UI that's _objectively_ bad is just unsupportable IMO. I don't mind GIMP's UI being different from Photoshop. I last used Photoshop over a decade ago and that would be plenty of time to adjust to any good UI. The things that annoy me about GIMP's UI are things like the focus always being in the wrong place so I have to use the mouse, or windows being placed over things I need to see, or having to reselect my font styling every time I retype something. The problem isn't that Photoshop does something different, it's that what GIMP does is bad. I happily use Blender's UI even though it's like nothing else on Earth. Edit: Just so I don't come off entirely as an ungrateful asshole, I use GIMP regularly and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I just get tired of people claiming there's nothing wrong with the UI, when there so clearly is. Single Window Mode was a huge step in the right direction IMO.
      - pawadu 10y ago
        Your comment made me wonder if there are any way to contribute to design in FOSS project the same way people contribute to the code? Does anyone know of any FOSS project that has a documented UI and UX contribution process?
        Joeboy 10y ago
        There's this: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign
      - phaemon 10y ago
        > things like the focus always being in the wrong place so I have to use the mouse, or windows being placed over things I need to see But both of these are things that are fixed with Single Window Mode (which it's clear you know about). Complaining about a UI issue that has already been fixed does seem a bit ungrateful. > or having to reselect my font styling every time I retype something Ok, fair enough. That one is less obvious as there are two places to change the font. If you're in Single Window Mode, you'll see that when you select the Text tool, you'll get the Tool Options underneath. Change the font there and that becomes the new default. You can still choose different fonts in the floating selector for specific Text fields.
  - whyileft 10y ago
    Its because GIMP's UI is designed for users that have more traditional Linux style window managers(tiling, focus follows mouse etc.) Whereas most other programs, including the Adobe suite, are designed for the more underpowered window systems in osx and windows. That's why it is painful to use in those environments and environments like gnome which follow a similar design philosophy.
    - DonHopkins 10y ago
      Comparing Gimp to X-Windows window managers is pretty apt, actually: "In summary, ICCCM is a technological disaster: a toxic waste dump of broken protocols, backward compatibility nightmares, complex nonsolutions to obsolete nonproblems, a twisted mass of scabs and scar tissue intended to cover up the moral and intellectual depravity of the industry's standard naked emperor. Using these toolkits is like trying to make a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes. - Jamie Zawinski" http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/x-windows/disaster.html http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/x-windows/disast...
    - prokoudine 10y ago
      > Its because GIMP's UI is designed for users that have more traditional Linux style window managers(tiling, focus follows mouse etc.) I think I can safely speak for the team here: no, we don't think much about tiling or f-f-m.
      - whyileft 10y ago
        Well, then I guess its just a happy accident because the separate windows for different tools makes it a lot more convenient for with weirdos like me. So thanks a bunch, even if you didn't mean it!
  - DonHopkins 10y ago
    It's as if some of the core GIMP developers and evangelists wear the fact that they have never ever used or know anything about Photoshop and never will as a badge of pride, and they are fanatically dedicated to never sullying themselves by ever even looking at Photoshop or especially listening to any of the complaints from Photoshop users. Any changes to GIMP that make it more like Photoshop, or acknowledgement that there's anything about Photoshop that GIMP should emulate, are considered anathema. It's always been a hot-button issue, so you get rationalizations like "The GIMP has lost its User eXperience (UX) maintainer. Jack Wallen thinks this could be good news for one of the most powerful open-source image editing tools," [1], and articles with touchy defensive titles [2] like "GIMP is Not a Photoshop Alternative", sections like "Why It’s Unfair to Compare GIMP to Photoshop", and quotes like "For example, when I’m talking about my Linux OS to a non-Linux user, and if he or she asks about Photoshop, my response is along the lines of “Nope, no Photoshop; I just use GIMP.". It's like: "No puppet! No puppet! You're the puppet!" And then there's the stubborn refusal to ever consider changing the name so it's not so offensive. That would be far too "politically correct". [1] http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-gimps-bad-news-could-be-good-news/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-gimps-bad-news-could... [2] http://designinstruct.com/opinion/photoshop-alternative-gimp/ http://designinstruct.com/opinion/photoshop-alternative-gimp...
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Its certainly OK for a product to innovate, as GIMP has. But sometimes the differences are gratuitous. That doesn't help with GIMP adoption, because admit it, most folks have some exposure to Photoshop already. Further, GIMP suffers (as many mature products do) from a certain baroque-ness of feature. Its menus and features have grown from someplace less mature, to where they are. And it shows in the clumsy menus that make sense if you went along for the ride but for a 1st-timer are just confusing.
      - Joeboy 10y ago
        > Its certainly OK for a product to innovate, as GIMP has. I'm not sure the GIMP's UI choices can generally be described as "innovating". I think they're generally just the obvious GTK+ default options, implemented without much testing or tweaking.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    A lot of people that hate on Gimp are really saying, "It's not Photoshop and I like Photoshop."
- pawadu 10y ago
  keyboard shortcuts have their place, but it is not a real solution here. Compare 1. Press Ctrl+Shift+A on keyboard 2. Select alignment mode with the mouse 3. Press Ctrl+Shift+F on keyboard 4. Change color with the mouse 5. Press Ctrl+Shift+L on keyboard 6. Change current layer with the mouse to 1. Select alignment mode 2. Change color 3. Change current layer The latter is fluid while the former feels artificially slowed down.

by pawadu 10y ago

Freak_NL 10y ago

Have you tried using keyboard shortcuts to access the panels? I often switch between Layers, Align and Distribute, and Transform, but always use the keyboard shortcuts. Inkscape's UI is a point deserving of attention (the GIMP has a more elegant UI), but I can't say that I've found it to be in decline (on the contrary).

AimHere 10y ago
> the GIMP has a more elegant UI GIMP must have come a long way for those words to form a sentence! Not that it was ever necessarily inelegant, but GIMP's reputation has always suffered from a big chunk of it's natural audience being experienced Photoshop users who find the transition jarring, and trash the UI for that reason. Hearing someone praise the interface is a bit unusual, still!
- mathw 10y ago
  FWIW I find Photoshop more intimidating and confusing than GIMP, because I never learned to use Photoshop. If you're looking at GIMP as something to attract Photoshop users, sure, the UI is bad because it's not the same as Photoshop. Sure, there are places you can look at Photoshop and say "wow, that's so much better for productive use" (ignoring feature differences where we know Photoshop is ahead of course). But this thing about GIMP having a UI that's _objectively_ bad is just unsupportable IMO.
  - Joeboy 10y ago
    > But this thing about GIMP having a UI that's _objectively_ bad is just unsupportable IMO. I don't mind GIMP's UI being different from Photoshop. I last used Photoshop over a decade ago and that would be plenty of time to adjust to any good UI. The things that annoy me about GIMP's UI are things like the focus always being in the wrong place so I have to use the mouse, or windows being placed over things I need to see, or having to reselect my font styling every time I retype something. The problem isn't that Photoshop does something different, it's that what GIMP does is bad. I happily use Blender's UI even though it's like nothing else on Earth. Edit: Just so I don't come off entirely as an ungrateful asshole, I use GIMP regularly and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I just get tired of people claiming there's nothing wrong with the UI, when there so clearly is. Single Window Mode was a huge step in the right direction IMO.
    - pawadu 10y ago
      Your comment made me wonder if there are any way to contribute to design in FOSS project the same way people contribute to the code? Does anyone know of any FOSS project that has a documented UI and UX contribution process?
      - Joeboy 10y ago
        There's this: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign
    - phaemon 10y ago
      > things like the focus always being in the wrong place so I have to use the mouse, or windows being placed over things I need to see But both of these are things that are fixed with Single Window Mode (which it's clear you know about). Complaining about a UI issue that has already been fixed does seem a bit ungrateful. > or having to reselect my font styling every time I retype something Ok, fair enough. That one is less obvious as there are two places to change the font. If you're in Single Window Mode, you'll see that when you select the Text tool, you'll get the Tool Options underneath. Change the font there and that becomes the new default. You can still choose different fonts in the floating selector for specific Text fields.
- whyileft 10y ago
  Its because GIMP's UI is designed for users that have more traditional Linux style window managers(tiling, focus follows mouse etc.) Whereas most other programs, including the Adobe suite, are designed for the more underpowered window systems in osx and windows. That's why it is painful to use in those environments and environments like gnome which follow a similar design philosophy.
  - DonHopkins 10y ago
    Comparing Gimp to X-Windows window managers is pretty apt, actually: "In summary, ICCCM is a technological disaster: a toxic waste dump of broken protocols, backward compatibility nightmares, complex nonsolutions to obsolete nonproblems, a twisted mass of scabs and scar tissue intended to cover up the moral and intellectual depravity of the industry's standard naked emperor. Using these toolkits is like trying to make a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes. - Jamie Zawinski" http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/x-windows/disaster.html http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/x-windows/disast...
  - prokoudine 10y ago
    > Its because GIMP's UI is designed for users that have more traditional Linux style window managers(tiling, focus follows mouse etc.) I think I can safely speak for the team here: no, we don't think much about tiling or f-f-m.
    - whyileft 10y ago
      Well, then I guess its just a happy accident because the separate windows for different tools makes it a lot more convenient for with weirdos like me. So thanks a bunch, even if you didn't mean it!
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  It's as if some of the core GIMP developers and evangelists wear the fact that they have never ever used or know anything about Photoshop and never will as a badge of pride, and they are fanatically dedicated to never sullying themselves by ever even looking at Photoshop or especially listening to any of the complaints from Photoshop users. Any changes to GIMP that make it more like Photoshop, or acknowledgement that there's anything about Photoshop that GIMP should emulate, are considered anathema. It's always been a hot-button issue, so you get rationalizations like "The GIMP has lost its User eXperience (UX) maintainer. Jack Wallen thinks this could be good news for one of the most powerful open-source image editing tools," [1], and articles with touchy defensive titles [2] like "GIMP is Not a Photoshop Alternative", sections like "Why It’s Unfair to Compare GIMP to Photoshop", and quotes like "For example, when I’m talking about my Linux OS to a non-Linux user, and if he or she asks about Photoshop, my response is along the lines of “Nope, no Photoshop; I just use GIMP.". It's like: "No puppet! No puppet! You're the puppet!" And then there's the stubborn refusal to ever consider changing the name so it's not so offensive. That would be far too "politically correct". [1] http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-gimps-bad-news-could-be-good-news/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-gimps-bad-news-could... [2] http://designinstruct.com/opinion/photoshop-alternative-gimp/ http://designinstruct.com/opinion/photoshop-alternative-gimp...
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Its certainly OK for a product to innovate, as GIMP has. But sometimes the differences are gratuitous. That doesn't help with GIMP adoption, because admit it, most folks have some exposure to Photoshop already. Further, GIMP suffers (as many mature products do) from a certain baroque-ness of feature. Its menus and features have grown from someplace less mature, to where they are. And it shows in the clumsy menus that make sense if you went along for the ride but for a 1st-timer are just confusing.
    - Joeboy 10y ago
      > Its certainly OK for a product to innovate, as GIMP has. I'm not sure the GIMP's UI choices can generally be described as "innovating". I think they're generally just the obvious GTK+ default options, implemented without much testing or tweaking.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  A lot of people that hate on Gimp are really saying, "It's not Photoshop and I like Photoshop."
pawadu 10y ago
keyboard shortcuts have their place, but it is not a real solution here. Compare 1. Press Ctrl+Shift+A on keyboard 2. Select alignment mode with the mouse 3. Press Ctrl+Shift+F on keyboard 4. Change color with the mouse 5. Press Ctrl+Shift+L on keyboard 6. Change current layer with the mouse to 1. Select alignment mode 2. Change color 3. Change current layer The latter is fluid while the former feels artificially slowed down.