4 ms·

For me, the most eye opening connection to humanity: > Through our investigation of /b/, we hope to contribute to scholarly conversations about data permanence

by nether 10y ago

For me, the most eye opening connection to humanity: > Through our investigation of /b/, we hope to contribute to scholarly conversations about data permanence. For example, Grudin (2002) suggests that we evolved to live in an ephemeral world, yet our technology takes us from the “here and now” to the “everywhere and forever.” Similarly, Mayer-Schonberger (2009) emphasizes the value of “societal forgetting,” where “the limits of human memory ensure that people’s sins are eventually forgotten.” As a long time 4channer, there's some "naturalness" I feel in the off-the-cuff discussions on the site where I know my stupidity won't be saved forever. The ephemerality taps into FOMO, requiring that you be there for a thread event that is unfolding, and that is addicting to some.

dyates 10y ago
>As a long time 4channer, there's some "naturalness" I feel in the off-the-cuff discussions on the site where I know my stupidity won't be saved forever. Not sure how true that is anymore these days, with the existence of so many third-party 4chan archive websites. Although your stupidity probably still won't be easily linked to your identity, so there's that.
- krackers 10y ago
  Even with the archive websites, the sheer volume of posts means that any single one is likely to be forgotten unless it's particularly kek-worthy. Plus as you mentioned it's still disentangled from your identity and other posts (though I recall a report somewhere on de-anonamyzing 4chan users through semantic analysis)
- kahrkunne 10y ago
  The archives are so vast that the data in them becomes mostly meaningless; the only point in reading them is to either check out threads that happened recently, or look at legendary posts (which would've been screencapped anyways)
rtpg 10y ago
As another person who spent a long time on there, I now feel like the opposite effect ends up happening. Sure, it's anonymous. But the short-term nature means that the prime objective when posting something is to get replies. So you get some troll bait or other things sure to get replies. Everyone else is doing the same, so you develop a vocabulary based primarily around saying and responding to memes. If the communication were natural, why is 80% of it memes? Because of the FOMO, you get an effect similar to many MMOs. In order to participate, you must spend a lot of time on the image board, on IRC, making sure that you're doing your thing. So you end up with a bunch of people who spend their (usually teenage) lives online absorbing as much image board culture as possible to "get good" at it. It's the ultimate clique. Everyone wants to be part of the secret club (sometimes quite literal: the IRC channels like #/v/ would spend their time creating private sub-channels to have "real talk"). I know on some of the lower-traffic boards you'll find some "real talk" happening, but even then it's usually layered underneath snarky "contrarian trueisms". It's the ultimate secret club for people who think they get the internet, and gets pretty close to a religion. Remember: don't say you came from reddit.
- niftich 10y ago
  This is definitely a lot of what goes on today. Despite the anonymity, there's a metagaming, social signalling aspect that comes from adhering to the tropes and catchphrases, being mean to newbies, displaying the mandatory -isms, playing up the bravado and machismo of a veteran, or for maximum trolling, roleplaying different people in sockpuppetry. I'd love a study that explores these motivations, of getting nameless credit and validation solely in one's own mind. In fact, in response, a different board, /s4s/ "shit 4chan says", was created to absorb some of this deliberate behavior. Despite that, /b/ is considerably more meta than it used to be, but most of it is due to market segmentation: there are specific sub-boards with their own distinct cultures that differ from those on /b/ and manage to be useful for information exchange. Posting on /b/ is very much a conscious choice on part of the author, and comes with all the risks and rewards: perhaps your content will be appreciated, perhaps it will be ridiculed. Perhaps you're inflaming actual people's passions, or perhaps you're being fooled.
- spdionis 10y ago
rl3 10y ago
>I feel in the off-the-cuff discussions on the site where I know my stupidity won't be saved forever. Meanwhile on HN, regret goes from actionable to permanent in two hours. Personally I think we should be able to kill one old post with no replies every 500 or 1000 karma. For old posts with replies, maybe just allow an append-only edit so it's possible to create little notes such as: "Hi! Please disregard; I can't believe I wrote this trash either."
- EdSharkey 10y ago
  Could you clarify what are you getting at when you say "actionable to permanent in two hours"? A few of the things I like about HN is are: * there are experts in many fields lurking that sometimes jump in on discussions and offer valuable opinions * the site rules, moderation, and downvotes encourage people to think before they write and have respectful discussions - I notice a lot of people bring their A-game here when they comment I'm always so surprised when users edit their comment to complain that they are accumulating downvotes. Karma is just a counter that got decremented a bunch of times. It says that people did not like what you wrote - process the feedback, move on, and try to do better next time! I've found that when I have an opinion I know others will consider odious, if I'm gentle with my approach and give some rationale, I don't get too harshly downvoted. A handful of "I DISAGREE, JERK" downvotes never hurt anyone.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Could you clarify what are you getting at when you say "actionable to permanent in two hours"? Likely this is a reference to how long a comment is editable by the author. After two hours, a comment can no longer be edited or deleted.
    - EdSharkey 10y ago
      Thanks for clarifying, I had no idea what they were referring to in that case.
  - sanderjd 10y ago
    I don't think they meant editing to complain about downvotes, but rather editing to disavow or delete a comment you wish you hadn't made (usually days or weeks later). I have lots of old comments that I find embarrassing now.
aphextron 10y ago
I like 4chan because it is as close to a meritocracy as exists online. There are no "reputations" or "karma", your ideas and opinions stand on their own merit. It's one of the last bastions of free speech and anonymity that exists.
- krapp 10y ago
  > It's one of the last bastions of free speech and anonymity that exists. Well... for certain definitions of free speech and anonymity. Let's not forget that people have left 4chan because they didn't consider it nearly free enough.
  - aphextron 10y ago
    >Let's not forget that people have left 4chan because they didn't consider it nearly free enough. People come and go from 4chan constantly, yet it remains. I've posted there since it was launched in 2004 and seen many different waves of new users in that time. The moderators have always held a strict line of no illegal pornography, but essentially anything else is allowed. There's really no other large internet community that is so laissez faire in it's limitations on free speech.

by nether 10y ago

dyates 10y ago

>As a long time 4channer, there's some "naturalness" I feel in the off-the-cuff discussions on the site where I know my stupidity won't be saved forever. Not sure how true that is anymore these days, with the existence of so many third-party 4chan archive websites. Although your stupidity probably still won't be easily linked to your identity, so there's that.

krackers 10y ago
Even with the archive websites, the sheer volume of posts means that any single one is likely to be forgotten unless it's particularly kek-worthy. Plus as you mentioned it's still disentangled from your identity and other posts (though I recall a report somewhere on de-anonamyzing 4chan users through semantic analysis)
kahrkunne 10y ago
The archives are so vast that the data in them becomes mostly meaningless; the only point in reading them is to either check out threads that happened recently, or look at legendary posts (which would've been screencapped anyways)

rtpg 10y ago

As another person who spent a long time on there, I now feel like the opposite effect ends up happening. Sure, it's anonymous. But the short-term nature means that the prime objective when posting something is to get replies. So you get some troll bait or other things sure to get replies. Everyone else is doing the same, so you develop a vocabulary based primarily around saying and responding to memes. If the communication were natural, why is 80% of it memes? Because of the FOMO, you get an effect similar to many MMOs. In order to participate, you must spend a lot of time on the image board, on IRC, making sure that you're doing your thing. So you end up with a bunch of people who spend their (usually teenage) lives online absorbing as much image board culture as possible to "get good" at it. It's the ultimate clique. Everyone wants to be part of the secret club (sometimes quite literal: the IRC channels like #/v/ would spend their time creating private sub-channels to have "real talk"). I know on some of the lower-traffic boards you'll find some "real talk" happening, but even then it's usually layered underneath snarky "contrarian trueisms". It's the ultimate secret club for people who think they get the internet, and gets pretty close to a religion. Remember: don't say you came from reddit.

niftich 10y ago
This is definitely a lot of what goes on today. Despite the anonymity, there's a metagaming, social signalling aspect that comes from adhering to the tropes and catchphrases, being mean to newbies, displaying the mandatory -isms, playing up the bravado and machismo of a veteran, or for maximum trolling, roleplaying different people in sockpuppetry. I'd love a study that explores these motivations, of getting nameless credit and validation solely in one's own mind. In fact, in response, a different board, /s4s/ "shit 4chan says", was created to absorb some of this deliberate behavior. Despite that, /b/ is considerably more meta than it used to be, but most of it is due to market segmentation: there are specific sub-boards with their own distinct cultures that differ from those on /b/ and manage to be useful for information exchange. Posting on /b/ is very much a conscious choice on part of the author, and comes with all the risks and rewards: perhaps your content will be appreciated, perhaps it will be ridiculed. Perhaps you're inflaming actual people's passions, or perhaps you're being fooled.
spdionis 10y ago

rl3 10y ago

>I feel in the off-the-cuff discussions on the site where I know my stupidity won't be saved forever. Meanwhile on HN, regret goes from actionable to permanent in two hours. Personally I think we should be able to kill one old post with no replies every 500 or 1000 karma. For old posts with replies, maybe just allow an append-only edit so it's possible to create little notes such as: "Hi! Please disregard; I can't believe I wrote this trash either."

EdSharkey 10y ago
Could you clarify what are you getting at when you say "actionable to permanent in two hours"? A few of the things I like about HN is are: * there are experts in many fields lurking that sometimes jump in on discussions and offer valuable opinions * the site rules, moderation, and downvotes encourage people to think before they write and have respectful discussions - I notice a lot of people bring their A-game here when they comment I'm always so surprised when users edit their comment to complain that they are accumulating downvotes. Karma is just a counter that got decremented a bunch of times. It says that people did not like what you wrote - process the feedback, move on, and try to do better next time! I've found that when I have an opinion I know others will consider odious, if I'm gentle with my approach and give some rationale, I don't get too harshly downvoted. A handful of "I DISAGREE, JERK" downvotes never hurt anyone.
- grzm 10y ago
  Could you clarify what are you getting at when you say "actionable to permanent in two hours"? Likely this is a reference to how long a comment is editable by the author. After two hours, a comment can no longer be edited or deleted.
  - EdSharkey 10y ago
    Thanks for clarifying, I had no idea what they were referring to in that case.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  I don't think they meant editing to complain about downvotes, but rather editing to disavow or delete a comment you wish you hadn't made (usually days or weeks later). I have lots of old comments that I find embarrassing now.

aphextron 10y ago

I like 4chan because it is as close to a meritocracy as exists online. There are no "reputations" or "karma", your ideas and opinions stand on their own merit. It's one of the last bastions of free speech and anonymity that exists.

krapp 10y ago
> It's one of the last bastions of free speech and anonymity that exists. Well... for certain definitions of free speech and anonymity. Let's not forget that people have left 4chan because they didn't consider it nearly free enough.
- aphextron 10y ago
  >Let's not forget that people have left 4chan because they didn't consider it nearly free enough. People come and go from 4chan constantly, yet it remains. I've posted there since it was launched in 2004 and seen many different waves of new users in that time. The moderators have always held a strict line of no illegal pornography, but essentially anything else is allowed. There's really no other large internet community that is so laissez faire in it's limitations on free speech.