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Don't go there. The limit of freedom of speech is real and can block you. Even when you run a startup that has nothing to do with local politics or anything con

Don't go there. The limit of freedom of speech is real and can block you. Even when you run a startup that has nothing to do with local politics or anything controversial. Plus, we are still in "state of emergency", that gives the state more rights than the patriot act. Go to the US, Canada or New Zealand.

bsaul 10y ago
Freedom of speech issues in France ?? I'd say a good reason not to come here is bureaucracy and taxes, but not issues with freedom of speech... Do you have some facts you'd like to share ?
- fvdessen 10y ago
  If I remember correctly, You are more or less responsible for whatever appears on your website. If your users use your service for forbidden speech, then you are liable.
  - FabHK 10y ago
    In Germany, you might be responsible for things you link to under certain circumstances. But I don't think that's really a big deal for startups in Germany. To assess this properly, it would be interesting to know what startups in different countries pay to lawyers.
  - noplay 10y ago
    If you are a publisher. Youtube, twitter, etc are seen as hosting platform and it's not the same law
- dap 10y ago
  Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten ?
- dest 10y ago
  Some opinions are not only socially incorrect, they can get you to jail. Examples of forbidden topics: homosexuals, non-white people, jews, saying that you don't need health insurance… Of course not endorsing anything about those topics, just saying that forbiding any debate on those topics may not be a long-term solution to solve those societal questions. We get the popular far-right party FN for some reason I think. Edit to bring "my damn sources": about health insurance http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/amendements/2252/AN/801.asp http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/amendements/2252/AN/801... incitation to anorexia http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/04/02/97001-20150402FILWWW00021-loi-sante-un-delit-d-incitation-a-l-anorexie-cree.php http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/04/02/97001-20150402F... saying you should not do abortion: https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/1999/qSEQ990415534.html https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/1999/qSEQ990415534.html for other topics, finding sources should be even easier
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    You either have no idea what you're talking about or you're lying on purpose. Or both. Nobody has been jailed for "saying they don't need health insurance". Our freedom of speech, like in the rest of europe, is slightly more restrictive than in the US (as in: there is a concept of restricted hate speech) but the fact that the FN even exists should go a long way to showcase that you don't get jailed for stuff like that. And in the future, if you're going to bring extraordinary claims to HN, bring a damn source. Edit to your edit: I don't think you yourself have read those sources you linked.
    - dest 10y ago
      I have updated my original post to provide some sources. It gets slightly off topic and noticeably too political for HN, so maybe we should stop debating about this here.
      - scrollaway 10y ago
        I don't think this is off-topic. But you are completely off the mark. Health insurance: What you linked is an amendment that adds sanctions to illegally refusing social security coverage. Whether you think that's OK or not is irrelevant - it's not a speech issue. "saying you should not do abortion": You are grossly misrepresenting what that is. Abortion is considered an integral right for french women. What your link says is that it's illegal to try to prevent them. > Cet article punit d'un emprisonnement de deux ans et/ou d'une amende de 30 000 francs le fait d'empêcher ou de tenter d'empêcher une interruption volontaire de grossesse ou les actes préalables : soit en pertubant l'accès aux établissements d'hospitalisation publics ou privés satisfaisant aux dispositions de l'article L. 176 du code de la santé publique ; soit en exerçant des menaces ou tout acte d'intimidation à l'encontre des personnels médicaux et non médicaux travaillant dans ces établissements ou des femmes venues y subir une interruption volontaire de grossesse. To translate: Preventing, or attempting to prevent a voluntary abortion is punished by two years in prison and/or a 30000 francs fine. "Either by preventing access to hospitals or threatening/intimidating working personnel or patients."
- mti 10y ago
  I don't think most of the issues with freedom of speech in France would be of much concern to a putative startup founder, but they are real. For example, "expressing support for acts of terror" is an imprisonable offense, and it has been interpreted incredibly broadly by the courts, to the point that drunk people have been sent to prison for years over tasteless jokes. Similarly, simply browsing websites that are deemed in support of terrorism: a man from Chartres recently received a two-year sentence for the latter. It's fair to say that the current climate is pretty Orwellian. But if you're not a brown person or a Muslim, you're not what prosecutors are after.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- woodhull 10y ago
  France tries to regulate what people wear while sitting on the beach. It seems downright opposed to multiculturalism and diversity. Freedom of expression isn't just the right to write blog posts.
  - GrumpyBen 10y ago
    That's false. The government of France never tried to pass such a bill. It was a mayor of a small town that tried to ban burkinis but this bill was suspended by a higher court.
  - realusername 10y ago
    it's generally opposed to multiculturalism because the dominant mentality in France is integrationism, not multiculturalism, it's the opposite approach to the US/UK.
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    I sure do see a lot of people here who have zero actual experience of France, ready to pass judgement based on whatever clickbait they happened to read a few years back, after it's gone through a couple of translation layers. Speaking as somebody who's lived in France, Greece, the UK, the US and Sweden: France is by far the most "multiculturalism-friendly" place of all these. Yes, even more than Sweden. Like most French people, I'm not proud of my country. But this is something I can be proud of. (Disclaimer: Some cities are of course less kind to strangers than others; it's not a uniform utopia)
    - Dr0Dre 10y ago
      I beg to differ. My experience was really the opposite. I come from the maghreb region and lived in France for a while. I experienced racism at work and outside of it. If you are arab looking or black, you better emmigrate to another country like UK/US or even germany for a better chance. If you don't you are doomed. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about check a movie called "La Haine". And I agree with you, it might be different in other cities.
- EnglishInFrance 10y ago
  See: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/11/frenchman-given-suspended-sentence-for-naming-his-wi-fi-network-daesh-21/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/11/frenchman-given-s... "Man names Wi-Fi network “Daesh 21,” prosecuted under French anti-terror law. New law forbids “public praise” of terrorism, punishable by up to 7 years in prison."
crypt1d 10y ago
I don't necessarily disagree, but citing a few references regarding the current state of freedom of speech in France might help your case here.
laurent123456 10y ago
What limit to the freedom of speech would cause problems to a startup? Do you have any example?
throwaway1892 10y ago
> The limit of freedom of speech Could you expand on that? I'm French, living and working near Paris and I would be interested to hear what limits do you think of. Personaly I think it is no worse that any other Western country. Edit: The limits I can think of are more from media watchdogs, which can be ignored (just look at Dieudonné). Or you can be sued by anti racist/anti _____phobe associations for slander, but I would not qualify that as a limit on freedom of speech like can exist in other countries.
oelmekki 10y ago
Also, maybe people will want to wait for next elections results (in may 2017) before considering moving in :) I don't see either what you mean with freedom of speech problems, except maybe if it's about holocaust denial or things like that which are punished by law, here. But I guess most people won't be bothered. State of emergency is indeed a problem, not to mention that there's a high chance we'll be targeted again by terrorism.
mtw 10y ago
In France, freedom of speech is limited for terrorism, hate speech, hating religions e.g. For example, encouraging racism, lauding Hitler or ISIS, or extreme versions of islam or christianism which limit women's rights etc. The only difference with US or Canada is that religion extremism is more "tolerated" in those countries, but that is NOT an issue for startups. Unless you're doing a religion startup??!? The real issue for startups going to France is not freedom of speech. It's red tape, lack of practicality, a bit more corruption (compared to Canada or New Zealand), and the lack of openness from the general population towards capitalism and innovation.
- throwaway1892 10y ago
  Could you expand on corruption? I am keenly aware of its existence in the construction sector there, but do you any other examples?
- adventured 10y ago
  That is clearly not the only difference. There is a vast amount of what would be considered incendiary or illegal discussion in France, that occurs on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, and dozens of other US platforms. Those types of services, Google included, are gateways & amplifiers that enable a much larger ecosystem for tech start-ups. Censorship drives or keeps them away, which is one of the reasons why the US will perpetually dominate such in the West. The latest anti free speech movement taking over Europe, is the "fake news" authoritarianism. Having bureaucrats decide what is legally to be considered news; aka an excuse for increasing government censorship. Major European nations are moving aggressively to strictly limit such. Should Breitbart be covered by freedom of speech? I think it's obvious that they should. In Germany or France it would not be, they'd immediately seek to destroy them. Facebook is a $369 billion tech behemoth that could never exist anywhere but the US. It's probably worth more than every public technology company in all of the EU combined.
- leppr 10y ago
  >In France, freedom of speech is limited for terrorism, hate speech, hating religions e.g. For example, encouraging racism, lauding Hitler or ISIS, or extreme versions of islam or christianism which limit women's rights etc. Related recent news story: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/05/french-teen-gets-suspended-jail-sentence-for-naming-wi-fi-network-after-isis https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/05/french-teen-ge...
grive 10y ago
> The limit of freedom of speech is real and can block you. Even when you run a startup that has nothing to do with local politics or anything controversial. Give a specific example or avoid baseless accusation.
chrisper 10y ago
Interesting that you do not mention any alternative European country instead.

bsaul 10y ago

Freedom of speech issues in France ?? I'd say a good reason not to come here is bureaucracy and taxes, but not issues with freedom of speech... Do you have some facts you'd like to share ?

fvdessen 10y ago
If I remember correctly, You are more or less responsible for whatever appears on your website. If your users use your service for forbidden speech, then you are liable.
- FabHK 10y ago
  In Germany, you might be responsible for things you link to under certain circumstances. But I don't think that's really a big deal for startups in Germany. To assess this properly, it would be interesting to know what startups in different countries pay to lawyers.
- noplay 10y ago
  If you are a publisher. Youtube, twitter, etc are seen as hosting platform and it's not the same law
dap 10y ago
Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten ?
dest 10y ago
Some opinions are not only socially incorrect, they can get you to jail. Examples of forbidden topics: homosexuals, non-white people, jews, saying that you don't need health insurance… Of course not endorsing anything about those topics, just saying that forbiding any debate on those topics may not be a long-term solution to solve those societal questions. We get the popular far-right party FN for some reason I think. Edit to bring "my damn sources": about health insurance http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/amendements/2252/AN/801.asp http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/amendements/2252/AN/801... incitation to anorexia http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/04/02/97001-20150402FILWWW00021-loi-sante-un-delit-d-incitation-a-l-anorexie-cree.php http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/04/02/97001-20150402F... saying you should not do abortion: https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/1999/qSEQ990415534.html https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/1999/qSEQ990415534.html for other topics, finding sources should be even easier
- scrollaway 10y ago
  You either have no idea what you're talking about or you're lying on purpose. Or both. Nobody has been jailed for "saying they don't need health insurance". Our freedom of speech, like in the rest of europe, is slightly more restrictive than in the US (as in: there is a concept of restricted hate speech) but the fact that the FN even exists should go a long way to showcase that you don't get jailed for stuff like that. And in the future, if you're going to bring extraordinary claims to HN, bring a damn source. Edit to your edit: I don't think you yourself have read those sources you linked.
  - dest 10y ago
    I have updated my original post to provide some sources. It gets slightly off topic and noticeably too political for HN, so maybe we should stop debating about this here.
    - scrollaway 10y ago
      I don't think this is off-topic. But you are completely off the mark. Health insurance: What you linked is an amendment that adds sanctions to illegally refusing social security coverage. Whether you think that's OK or not is irrelevant - it's not a speech issue. "saying you should not do abortion": You are grossly misrepresenting what that is. Abortion is considered an integral right for french women. What your link says is that it's illegal to try to prevent them. > Cet article punit d'un emprisonnement de deux ans et/ou d'une amende de 30 000 francs le fait d'empêcher ou de tenter d'empêcher une interruption volontaire de grossesse ou les actes préalables : soit en pertubant l'accès aux établissements d'hospitalisation publics ou privés satisfaisant aux dispositions de l'article L. 176 du code de la santé publique ; soit en exerçant des menaces ou tout acte d'intimidation à l'encontre des personnels médicaux et non médicaux travaillant dans ces établissements ou des femmes venues y subir une interruption volontaire de grossesse. To translate: Preventing, or attempting to prevent a voluntary abortion is punished by two years in prison and/or a 30000 francs fine. "Either by preventing access to hospitals or threatening/intimidating working personnel or patients."
mti 10y ago
I don't think most of the issues with freedom of speech in France would be of much concern to a putative startup founder, but they are real. For example, "expressing support for acts of terror" is an imprisonable offense, and it has been interpreted incredibly broadly by the courts, to the point that drunk people have been sent to prison for years over tasteless jokes. Similarly, simply browsing websites that are deemed in support of terrorism: a man from Chartres recently received a two-year sentence for the latter. It's fair to say that the current climate is pretty Orwellian. But if you're not a brown person or a Muslim, you're not what prosecutors are after.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
woodhull 10y ago
France tries to regulate what people wear while sitting on the beach. It seems downright opposed to multiculturalism and diversity. Freedom of expression isn't just the right to write blog posts.
- GrumpyBen 10y ago
  That's false. The government of France never tried to pass such a bill. It was a mayor of a small town that tried to ban burkinis but this bill was suspended by a higher court.
- realusername 10y ago
  it's generally opposed to multiculturalism because the dominant mentality in France is integrationism, not multiculturalism, it's the opposite approach to the US/UK.
- scrollaway 10y ago
  I sure do see a lot of people here who have zero actual experience of France, ready to pass judgement based on whatever clickbait they happened to read a few years back, after it's gone through a couple of translation layers. Speaking as somebody who's lived in France, Greece, the UK, the US and Sweden: France is by far the most "multiculturalism-friendly" place of all these. Yes, even more than Sweden. Like most French people, I'm not proud of my country. But this is something I can be proud of. (Disclaimer: Some cities are of course less kind to strangers than others; it's not a uniform utopia)
  - Dr0Dre 10y ago
    I beg to differ. My experience was really the opposite. I come from the maghreb region and lived in France for a while. I experienced racism at work and outside of it. If you are arab looking or black, you better emmigrate to another country like UK/US or even germany for a better chance. If you don't you are doomed. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about check a movie called "La Haine". And I agree with you, it might be different in other cities.
EnglishInFrance 10y ago
See: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/11/frenchman-given-suspended-sentence-for-naming-his-wi-fi-network-daesh-21/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/11/frenchman-given-s... "Man names Wi-Fi network “Daesh 21,” prosecuted under French anti-terror law. New law forbids “public praise” of terrorism, punishable by up to 7 years in prison."

crypt1d 10y ago

I don't necessarily disagree, but citing a few references regarding the current state of freedom of speech in France might help your case here.

laurent123456 10y ago

What limit to the freedom of speech would cause problems to a startup? Do you have any example?

throwaway1892 10y ago

> The limit of freedom of speech Could you expand on that? I'm French, living and working near Paris and I would be interested to hear what limits do you think of. Personaly I think it is no worse that any other Western country. Edit: The limits I can think of are more from media watchdogs, which can be ignored (just look at Dieudonné). Or you can be sued by anti racist/anti _____phobe associations for slander, but I would not qualify that as a limit on freedom of speech like can exist in other countries.

oelmekki 10y ago

Also, maybe people will want to wait for next elections results (in may 2017) before considering moving in :) I don't see either what you mean with freedom of speech problems, except maybe if it's about holocaust denial or things like that which are punished by law, here. But I guess most people won't be bothered. State of emergency is indeed a problem, not to mention that there's a high chance we'll be targeted again by terrorism.

mtw 10y ago

In France, freedom of speech is limited for terrorism, hate speech, hating religions e.g. For example, encouraging racism, lauding Hitler or ISIS, or extreme versions of islam or christianism which limit women's rights etc. The only difference with US or Canada is that religion extremism is more "tolerated" in those countries, but that is NOT an issue for startups. Unless you're doing a religion startup??!? The real issue for startups going to France is not freedom of speech. It's red tape, lack of practicality, a bit more corruption (compared to Canada or New Zealand), and the lack of openness from the general population towards capitalism and innovation.

throwaway1892 10y ago
Could you expand on corruption? I am keenly aware of its existence in the construction sector there, but do you any other examples?
adventured 10y ago
That is clearly not the only difference. There is a vast amount of what would be considered incendiary or illegal discussion in France, that occurs on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, and dozens of other US platforms. Those types of services, Google included, are gateways & amplifiers that enable a much larger ecosystem for tech start-ups. Censorship drives or keeps them away, which is one of the reasons why the US will perpetually dominate such in the West. The latest anti free speech movement taking over Europe, is the "fake news" authoritarianism. Having bureaucrats decide what is legally to be considered news; aka an excuse for increasing government censorship. Major European nations are moving aggressively to strictly limit such. Should Breitbart be covered by freedom of speech? I think it's obvious that they should. In Germany or France it would not be, they'd immediately seek to destroy them. Facebook is a $369 billion tech behemoth that could never exist anywhere but the US. It's probably worth more than every public technology company in all of the EU combined.
leppr 10y ago
>In France, freedom of speech is limited for terrorism, hate speech, hating religions e.g. For example, encouraging racism, lauding Hitler or ISIS, or extreme versions of islam or christianism which limit women's rights etc. Related recent news story: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/05/french-teen-gets-suspended-jail-sentence-for-naming-wi-fi-network-after-isis https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/05/french-teen-ge...

grive 10y ago

> The limit of freedom of speech is real and can block you. Even when you run a startup that has nothing to do with local politics or anything controversial. Give a specific example or avoid baseless accusation.

chrisper 10y ago

Interesting that you do not mention any alternative European country instead.