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Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

by api 10y ago

artursapek 10y ago
I don't know about primary, but I think a big one is the EU forcing countries to meet a quota of "refugee" immigration. Poland for example is refusing to accept these immigrants and paying a pretty big fine for each one they turn away [1]. Other countries like France and Germany are buckling to the pressure from the EU and accepting them, and we've all seen how well that has worked out for them. So I think not having to take this crap from the EU is one attractive reason to leave. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-refuses-to-take-a-single-refugee-because-of-security-fears-a7020076.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-refuse...
- gambiting 10y ago
  The interesting thing here that it's not "EU vs EU member countries" - members do come up with, and vote on ideas. It's not like evil EU parliament said that everyone has to take immigrants, so everyone now has to and that's it. The move came about because of the flood of immigrants coming to Italy and Greece, mostly - and serious concern that neither one of those two countries can deal with the problem on their own. It has been decided(democratically, by representatives from each member country, not some evil court of villains!) that other member states will help lessen the burden, by taking a certain quota of immigrants, so that Italy and Greece don't collapse(even more). Yet in some media(particularly in the UK) it's portrayed as EU telling member countries what to do, without any notion that those countries also voted on this issue and agreed to it.
  - blibble 10y ago
    > Yet in some media(particularly in the UK) it's portrayed as EU telling member countries what to do, without any notion that those countries also voted on this issue and agreed to it. this is true, but the EU institution used its power to force through a proposal which several countries were extremely upset with. this was the first real example of Qualified Majority Voting being used in a controversial way, resulting in a lot of people becoming upset... suddenly the EU could no longer be seen as an institution that works almost entirely on consensus it certainly modified my views on whether or not I wanted the EU institutions gaining more power, or even retaining the ones they have at the moment
  - stale2002 10y ago
    It is not the EU telling these countries what to do. It is other EU countries telling other EU countries what to do, just because they have more votes. What if one EU country wants to do something else? Can't different EU countries just choose to do their own thing, and be ruled by their OWN population, instead of people in Germany deciding what happens to people in Poland? If greece doesn't want to deal with these immigrants then THEY should chose to close their own borders. Self determination is the fundamental issue at stake here. The EU IS telling countries what to do! People in Germany are deciding what happens to people in Poland!
    - gambiting 10y ago
      Ugh. No, it's like a group of people deciding to do something together. Sometimes you don't like what the group is doing,but it's usually better to be in it than outside of it. I personally would love for EU to unite even further,just call it United States of Europe and stop saying that it's German people telling Polish people what to do or vice versa - it doesn't matter, or at least I wish it didn't. And I'm sure you know very well that "closing borders" wouldn't do a thing when immigrants arrive via boats and land on your beaches asking for asylum. You just can't send people back to active war zones, and that has nothing to do with EU regulations.
      - stale2002 10y ago
        "it doesn't matter, or at least I wish it didn't." It doesn't matter to you, but I am sure it matters a whole lot to the people of Poland (but fuck them, I guess?). Apparently they've changed their mind about this deal, and just want to be left alone. The EU isn't a suicide pact. People can and will change their mind, and will change the deal along with it. "You just can't send people back to active war zones, and that has nothing to do with EU regulations." Then send them to Germany or Sweden. They love the refugees! It is a win win situation. If they really do believe all the things that they say, then it should be no problem, right?
        artursapek 10y ago
        > They love the refugees! I think you're probably being sarcastic, but after the latest semi truck incident at the holiday market there were reportedly protests outside of Merkel's office. The right wing is gaining traction. I'd be surprised if she is still in power in 3 years.
stale2002 10y ago
Open borders. Just keep the free trade stuff, but allow countries to control their own borders and things would be good.
- walterstucco 10y ago
  No, they won't. You can't cherry pick in this situation. You got free movement in EU because of the Bosman ruling, it's the law, everything less than that is a step back and we can't afford steps back. It's like when your girlfriend asks for some space. It's the beginning of the end and. nothing good can come out of it.
  - stale2002 10y ago
    Why not? We can change the law. The people don't want open borders. So change the law to get that. If the EU doesn't, then the whole thing will collapse as we get more brexits. Brexit wouldn't have happened if Britain was allowed to have border controls.
    - walterstucco 10y ago
      > The people don't want open borders The people don't want a lot of things. > If the EU doesn't, then the whole thing will collapse And then the people won't even have the option of going to Berlin and work as waitress, while people from Africa or middle east will continue to come here, undisturbed, without a super state trying to control the situation. It's so obvious that the single states can't control immigration on their own. If that's what they want, they can be my guests.
      - stale2002 10y ago
        "It's so obvious that the single states can't control immigration on their own." Britain can. Breaking into there is MUCH harder than anywhere else. Island nation and all. "and then the people won't even have the option of going to Berlin and work as waitress" Orrr..... they will just negotiate and change the deal, so something like this CAN work. This is not all or nothing. There are better solutions, and they will be negotiated.
Mikeb85 10y ago
Immigration. Mainly workers from poorer countries taking working jobs. Agriculture. Again, low cost producers undercutting domestic producers. And there's legit questions to be had about monetary policy (or the lack thereof), as well as EU courts undermining local law.
0xD3ADB33F 10y ago
Unemployment caused by the euro.
dkb 10y ago
It depends from who. A big one, in my opinion, is the loss of power/sovereignty, in the sense that countries of the EU have to follow the European Directives that are made in Bruxelles, and that if they don't, they have to pay huge penalty fees. Another one is that, on a lot of different matters and areas, different countries just cannot obey to the same laws, and their history, language, and way of thinking are just fundamentally different.
- rbanffy 10y ago
  I find the need for "sovereignty" funny. It seems that ruling a small place is better than being a part of a much larger thing. This is too 1930's...
  - dkb 10y ago
    Some find that being a part of a much larger thing, at the expense of sovereignty, is funny.

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

by api 10y ago

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

I don't know about primary, but I think a big one is the EU forcing countries to meet a quota of "refugee" immigration. Poland for example is refusing to accept these immigrants and paying a pretty big fine for each one they turn away [1]. Other countries like France and Germany are buckling to the pressure from the EU and accepting them, and we've all seen how well that has worked out for them. So I think not having to take this crap from the EU is one attractive reason to leave. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-refuses-to-take-a-single-refugee-because-of-security-fears-a7020076.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-refuse...

gambiting 10y ago
The interesting thing here that it's not "EU vs EU member countries" - members do come up with, and vote on ideas. It's not like evil EU parliament said that everyone has to take immigrants, so everyone now has to and that's it. The move came about because of the flood of immigrants coming to Italy and Greece, mostly - and serious concern that neither one of those two countries can deal with the problem on their own. It has been decided(democratically, by representatives from each member country, not some evil court of villains!) that other member states will help lessen the burden, by taking a certain quota of immigrants, so that Italy and Greece don't collapse(even more). Yet in some media(particularly in the UK) it's portrayed as EU telling member countries what to do, without any notion that those countries also voted on this issue and agreed to it.
- blibble 10y ago
  > Yet in some media(particularly in the UK) it's portrayed as EU telling member countries what to do, without any notion that those countries also voted on this issue and agreed to it. this is true, but the EU institution used its power to force through a proposal which several countries were extremely upset with. this was the first real example of Qualified Majority Voting being used in a controversial way, resulting in a lot of people becoming upset... suddenly the EU could no longer be seen as an institution that works almost entirely on consensus it certainly modified my views on whether or not I wanted the EU institutions gaining more power, or even retaining the ones they have at the moment
- stale2002 10y ago
  It is not the EU telling these countries what to do. It is other EU countries telling other EU countries what to do, just because they have more votes. What if one EU country wants to do something else? Can't different EU countries just choose to do their own thing, and be ruled by their OWN population, instead of people in Germany deciding what happens to people in Poland? If greece doesn't want to deal with these immigrants then THEY should chose to close their own borders. Self determination is the fundamental issue at stake here. The EU IS telling countries what to do! People in Germany are deciding what happens to people in Poland!
  - gambiting 10y ago
    Ugh. No, it's like a group of people deciding to do something together. Sometimes you don't like what the group is doing,but it's usually better to be in it than outside of it. I personally would love for EU to unite even further,just call it United States of Europe and stop saying that it's German people telling Polish people what to do or vice versa - it doesn't matter, or at least I wish it didn't. And I'm sure you know very well that "closing borders" wouldn't do a thing when immigrants arrive via boats and land on your beaches asking for asylum. You just can't send people back to active war zones, and that has nothing to do with EU regulations.
    - stale2002 10y ago
      "it doesn't matter, or at least I wish it didn't." It doesn't matter to you, but I am sure it matters a whole lot to the people of Poland (but fuck them, I guess?). Apparently they've changed their mind about this deal, and just want to be left alone. The EU isn't a suicide pact. People can and will change their mind, and will change the deal along with it. "You just can't send people back to active war zones, and that has nothing to do with EU regulations." Then send them to Germany or Sweden. They love the refugees! It is a win win situation. If they really do believe all the things that they say, then it should be no problem, right?
      - artursapek 10y ago
        > They love the refugees! I think you're probably being sarcastic, but after the latest semi truck incident at the holiday market there were reportedly protests outside of Merkel's office. The right wing is gaining traction. I'd be surprised if she is still in power in 3 years.

stale2002 10y ago

Open borders. Just keep the free trade stuff, but allow countries to control their own borders and things would be good.

walterstucco 10y ago
No, they won't. You can't cherry pick in this situation. You got free movement in EU because of the Bosman ruling, it's the law, everything less than that is a step back and we can't afford steps back. It's like when your girlfriend asks for some space. It's the beginning of the end and. nothing good can come out of it.
- stale2002 10y ago
  Why not? We can change the law. The people don't want open borders. So change the law to get that. If the EU doesn't, then the whole thing will collapse as we get more brexits. Brexit wouldn't have happened if Britain was allowed to have border controls.
  - walterstucco 10y ago
    > The people don't want open borders The people don't want a lot of things. > If the EU doesn't, then the whole thing will collapse And then the people won't even have the option of going to Berlin and work as waitress, while people from Africa or middle east will continue to come here, undisturbed, without a super state trying to control the situation. It's so obvious that the single states can't control immigration on their own. If that's what they want, they can be my guests.
    - stale2002 10y ago
      "It's so obvious that the single states can't control immigration on their own." Britain can. Breaking into there is MUCH harder than anywhere else. Island nation and all. "and then the people won't even have the option of going to Berlin and work as waitress" Orrr..... they will just negotiate and change the deal, so something like this CAN work. This is not all or nothing. There are better solutions, and they will be negotiated.

Mikeb85 10y ago

Immigration. Mainly workers from poorer countries taking working jobs. Agriculture. Again, low cost producers undercutting domestic producers. And there's legit questions to be had about monetary policy (or the lack thereof), as well as EU courts undermining local law.

0xD3ADB33F 10y ago

Unemployment caused by the euro.

dkb 10y ago

It depends from who. A big one, in my opinion, is the loss of power/sovereignty, in the sense that countries of the EU have to follow the European Directives that are made in Bruxelles, and that if they don't, they have to pay huge penalty fees. Another one is that, on a lot of different matters and areas, different countries just cannot obey to the same laws, and their history, language, and way of thinking are just fundamentally different.

rbanffy 10y ago
I find the need for "sovereignty" funny. It seems that ruling a small place is better than being a part of a much larger thing. This is too 1930's...
- dkb 10y ago
  Some find that being a part of a much larger thing, at the expense of sovereignty, is funny.