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Boy would you love the Netherlands. Here, almost everyone rides a used bike that's had many owners, each of which changed it in some "improper" way. Wheels the

Boy would you love the Netherlands. Here, almost everyone rides a used bike that's had many owners, each of which changed it in some "improper" way. Wheels the wrong size for the bike, duct tape holding the bike together, half of the spokes broken, etc., etc. But you know what? That's what the whole country uses for transportation, every day, and it works fine. It turns out that, in your day-to-day usage of a bike (and this is for a country of people who ride their bikes as their main mode of transportation) it doesn't matter what ridiculous new type of Chinesium your wheels are made out of, as long as they stay vaguely circular. Brakes don't work? Here, put this duct tape on the brake pads, now they work. Chain keeps falling off? Oh, just don't put it into that gear then. And when it completely falls apart one day, or when it gets stolen, then another one costs $50. When I'm in the US, I ride an $1100 bike. It's ridiculous, the thing is this gleaming sparkly shade of white, fancy carbon fiber parts that are 150% more aerodynamic than everyone else's carbon fiber parts, a frame that is so light you can carry it with one finger, etc., etc. It goes really fast, and is so smooth I forget I'm biking. But when I'm in the Netherlands? I ride a $20 bike that has spokes sticking out and broken, rust covering everything, and sometimes the front falls off. I'm serious, the front actually falls off. Yes, the handlebars and front fork and the whole shebang, in one go. Somewhat uniquely, American bike enthusiasts are insane about safety. "You could DIE with an improperly maintained bike!", "Not wearing a helmet is like not wearing a seatbelt!" and "Walmart bikes are death traps" are things I've heard recently. But somehow, when the front of my $20 bike falls off (which has happened twice now) all I get is a minor scrape to my hands.

woodruffw 10y ago
I've talked to people in the Netherlands before, and they've mentioned the ubiquity of slapped-together bikes. I think that the difference over here is that we pretend that our cheap new bikes are safe ;)
- owenversteeg 10y ago
  To be honest, I love our slapped-together bikes. I love it when someone takes a completely rust-covered bike out of a canal and somehow manages to ride it. I love it when the front falls off, and I love it when the spokes stick out. Because every $20 Dutch bike that's a mess of barely functioning parts is a slap across the face to the bike snobs of the world. For every snob with the custom carbon fiber frame and the wind-tunnel-tested wheels there's a man in Rotterdam with the front half of a toddler's training bike welded to a Fatboy. For every idiot that says their unlubricated chain is literally unrideable there's a man in the Hague who combined two different-size chains into one and rode on it.
shortsightedsid 10y ago
I'm in Amsterdam right now as well. > Brakes don't work? Here, put this duct tape on the brake pads, now they work. That's something which I have not seen. Not duct tape but brakes. I must be one of the few who don't have coaster brakes. Then again, expats don't really count. > Somewhat uniquely, American bike enthusiasts are insane about safety. "You could DIE with an improperly maintained bike!", "Not wearing a helmet is like not wearing a seatbelt!" and "Walmart bikes are death traps" are things I've heard recently. But somehow, when the front of my $20 bike falls off (which has happened twice now) all I get is a minor scrape to my hands. I think this applies to lots of things in the US comparatively. I can't imagine anywhere in the US having Canals and no guard rails; Jaywalking like you born to; Firecrackers in the middle of street for NYE. I think the US has too much of a "fear" attitude that's probably due to frivolous lawsuits, whereas in Amsterdam at least, it's more laissez faire. That translates to $1000 cycles for recreation vs $20 cycles for transport.
- owenversteeg 10y ago
  I find the bikes in Amsterdam are actually somewhat well maintained compared to the rest of the country. I live in Delft, a town with 25,000 students of a population of 95,000. Here, the bike combinations are particularly creative, which I really enjoy.
- woodruffw 10y ago
  > I can't imagine anywhere in the US having Canals and no guard rails; Jaywalking like you born to; Firecrackers in the middle of street for NYE. Just speaking from my experience growing up in NYC: I've seen and done all of these things. Of course, that's definitely not the average American experience. I think a large part of the US's penchant for regulating cycling comes from a tendency to look at bicycles as a toy, rather than a tool. When we think of cycling foremost as a diversion for children, we're less likely to stress the importance of learning to maintain one's own bike and are more likely to stress replace-ability and a misguided sense of safety ("it's just a toy, we'll get you another one!").
harlanlewis 10y ago
I've ridden for years with the Dutch mindset - I kept a '60s steel roadbike rolling with a bent frame after a car hit it while locked on the sidewalk (ugh). Frankenbikes can be great, and the performance limitations give them some personality, especially if you're already a comfortable cyclist and understand (or implemented) the quirks. But there's a big difference between the 'keep it rolling' mindset and dealing with new-from-factory plastic that walmart et al try to pass off as metal. I've seen axles split in half while coasting down a steep hill, dropping the bottom bracket straight to the ground (and the rider along with it). Derailleurs pulled into spinning spokes, causing an explosion of twisted metal that was thrust into my friend's calf. I think a lot of the safety insanity you refer to comes from most American cycling experience being on bikes that seem designed to fail spectacularly.
- Eric_WVGG 10y ago
  Also those shitty American bikes are designed to look like extreme speedsters. Nobody would get on a Dutch bike and expect to do more than hobble around the countryside or neighborhood and show off your new elbow patches. Folks get on those Walmart deathtraps and they explode on an off-road boulder or disintegrate while someone speeds around the wheels of a dump truck.
yread 10y ago
Or the infamous: why would you need brakes when your bell works just fine?!
curveship 10y ago
The difference is that cheap Dutch bikes are super simple: no gears and a coaster brake. The Walmart bikes aren't. They've often got 21 speeds, shocks, etc etc, all of which is pure crap and fails after minimal use. There's also the infrastructure to consider. If your bike fails in NL, you curse and coast to a stop on the bikeway. If it fails in the US, you may be in the middle of trying to cross a 6 lane road with no bike infrastructure whatsoever, putting your life in danger. I rode a crappy bike in NL (3 month stay in Rotterdam), but I wouldn't want to ride that same bike here in the US.
- taeric 10y ago
  In addition to this, don't ignore survivor bias. It is amazing how so many things are ignored if they are normalized. An easy example, right on red. Statistically, this has been shown to be dangerous. Chance of convincing people of this... Pretty much nil.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    I'm not sure anyone would dispute that there's some incremental danger to allowing right turn on red. After all, it wasn't the norm for a long time in the US. (It became widespread in the 1970s as a fuel-saving measure.) Similarly, we'd certainly be safer with lower speed limits. But we collectively make tradeoffs which may even be informed by some level of data.
    - taeric 10y ago
      To that end, I agree that rhetoric that many "bargain" and "thrown together" bikes are "death traps" does little to help the conversation. That is, I would expect that quality bikes are safer. I still expect many did just fine on them. (Myself included.)
- emn13 10y ago
  I think the most impactful difference (visavis safety in NL) aren't the segregated bikepaths - those are common, but not pervasive. Even more important are the car drivers, which are accustomed to bikes, and not as easily surprised when some cyclist makes a sudden appearance in their path. Of course, bikepaths are great in busier parts, but even where they're absent serious traffic injuries aren't common. And that's despite some unnecessary risks (such as lack of lights in the dark) that are taken a little too commonly.
dashundchen 10y ago
As an American who almost exclusively bikes for transportation, I think it comes down to a difference in cycling conditions. Most people I know grew up riding ~$100 Walmart bikes, just as described - steel, heavy, poorly assembled and usually the wrong size. It's quite harrowing to be riding a slow and breakdown-prone bike on 65kph auto-centric roads, when your chain falls off or brakes fail. If there was more segregated cycling infrastructure and denser cities, I think it would be much different. Adding in the fact that most people I know don't know how to change a tire, much less fix or maintain a bike, I'm not surprised they are turned off of cycling entirely by the time they become adults. After riding department store bikes most of my life, I bought a entry level aluminium hybrid bike with quality components for $400 new (vs ~$200 for a department store steel bike). It was life changing to be able to be able to accelerate and maneuver in traffic, and made cycling much more attractive. I could also ride long distances without worrying about breaking down - and if I do, the parts are standard and I can fix it myself.
woah 10y ago
Isn't the difference that in the Netherlands you ride at 15 mph on a dedicated bike street, while in the US you ride with the cars? This explains a lot about the desire for speed, emphasis on safety and maintenance, etc in the US.
Symbiote 10y ago
Weren't those Dutch bikes changing hands for €50 once decent, €350+ bikes? I think they are, that's why they're still working. I was given an £80 bike once, to cycle to work and back every day. It was ruined within 6 months -- the bearings in the hub and bottom bracket were worn out, the brakes wouldn't line up properly, the wheel rims were almost worn through, the gears didn't change properly. People in the Netherlands simply don't buy these bicycles, they'd rather spend €90 on a second hand one. However, the £80 bike is OK for a British adult to cycle 10km round a nature reserve, once or twice per year.
analog31 10y ago
The US has something like 10x the number of cycling fatalities per mile. It is more dangerous here, though I grant you that the main hazard is not the fronts falling off our bikes. I ride a Franken bike that my dad picked out of the trash. It's in good working condition, but in my defense, I simply enjoy tinkering with mechanics as a hobby.

woodruffw 10y ago

I've talked to people in the Netherlands before, and they've mentioned the ubiquity of slapped-together bikes. I think that the difference over here is that we pretend that our cheap new bikes are safe ;)

owenversteeg 10y ago
To be honest, I love our slapped-together bikes. I love it when someone takes a completely rust-covered bike out of a canal and somehow manages to ride it. I love it when the front falls off, and I love it when the spokes stick out. Because every $20 Dutch bike that's a mess of barely functioning parts is a slap across the face to the bike snobs of the world. For every snob with the custom carbon fiber frame and the wind-tunnel-tested wheels there's a man in Rotterdam with the front half of a toddler's training bike welded to a Fatboy. For every idiot that says their unlubricated chain is literally unrideable there's a man in the Hague who combined two different-size chains into one and rode on it.

shortsightedsid 10y ago

I'm in Amsterdam right now as well. > Brakes don't work? Here, put this duct tape on the brake pads, now they work. That's something which I have not seen. Not duct tape but brakes. I must be one of the few who don't have coaster brakes. Then again, expats don't really count. > Somewhat uniquely, American bike enthusiasts are insane about safety. "You could DIE with an improperly maintained bike!", "Not wearing a helmet is like not wearing a seatbelt!" and "Walmart bikes are death traps" are things I've heard recently. But somehow, when the front of my $20 bike falls off (which has happened twice now) all I get is a minor scrape to my hands. I think this applies to lots of things in the US comparatively. I can't imagine anywhere in the US having Canals and no guard rails; Jaywalking like you born to; Firecrackers in the middle of street for NYE. I think the US has too much of a "fear" attitude that's probably due to frivolous lawsuits, whereas in Amsterdam at least, it's more laissez faire. That translates to $1000 cycles for recreation vs $20 cycles for transport.

owenversteeg 10y ago
I find the bikes in Amsterdam are actually somewhat well maintained compared to the rest of the country. I live in Delft, a town with 25,000 students of a population of 95,000. Here, the bike combinations are particularly creative, which I really enjoy.
woodruffw 10y ago
> I can't imagine anywhere in the US having Canals and no guard rails; Jaywalking like you born to; Firecrackers in the middle of street for NYE. Just speaking from my experience growing up in NYC: I've seen and done all of these things. Of course, that's definitely not the average American experience. I think a large part of the US's penchant for regulating cycling comes from a tendency to look at bicycles as a toy, rather than a tool. When we think of cycling foremost as a diversion for children, we're less likely to stress the importance of learning to maintain one's own bike and are more likely to stress replace-ability and a misguided sense of safety ("it's just a toy, we'll get you another one!").

harlanlewis 10y ago

I've ridden for years with the Dutch mindset - I kept a '60s steel roadbike rolling with a bent frame after a car hit it while locked on the sidewalk (ugh). Frankenbikes can be great, and the performance limitations give them some personality, especially if you're already a comfortable cyclist and understand (or implemented) the quirks. But there's a big difference between the 'keep it rolling' mindset and dealing with new-from-factory plastic that walmart et al try to pass off as metal. I've seen axles split in half while coasting down a steep hill, dropping the bottom bracket straight to the ground (and the rider along with it). Derailleurs pulled into spinning spokes, causing an explosion of twisted metal that was thrust into my friend's calf. I think a lot of the safety insanity you refer to comes from most American cycling experience being on bikes that seem designed to fail spectacularly.

Eric_WVGG 10y ago
Also those shitty American bikes are designed to look like extreme speedsters. Nobody would get on a Dutch bike and expect to do more than hobble around the countryside or neighborhood and show off your new elbow patches. Folks get on those Walmart deathtraps and they explode on an off-road boulder or disintegrate while someone speeds around the wheels of a dump truck.

yread 10y ago

Or the infamous: why would you need brakes when your bell works just fine?!

curveship 10y ago

The difference is that cheap Dutch bikes are super simple: no gears and a coaster brake. The Walmart bikes aren't. They've often got 21 speeds, shocks, etc etc, all of which is pure crap and fails after minimal use. There's also the infrastructure to consider. If your bike fails in NL, you curse and coast to a stop on the bikeway. If it fails in the US, you may be in the middle of trying to cross a 6 lane road with no bike infrastructure whatsoever, putting your life in danger. I rode a crappy bike in NL (3 month stay in Rotterdam), but I wouldn't want to ride that same bike here in the US.

taeric 10y ago
In addition to this, don't ignore survivor bias. It is amazing how so many things are ignored if they are normalized. An easy example, right on red. Statistically, this has been shown to be dangerous. Chance of convincing people of this... Pretty much nil.
- ghaff 10y ago
  I'm not sure anyone would dispute that there's some incremental danger to allowing right turn on red. After all, it wasn't the norm for a long time in the US. (It became widespread in the 1970s as a fuel-saving measure.) Similarly, we'd certainly be safer with lower speed limits. But we collectively make tradeoffs which may even be informed by some level of data.
  - taeric 10y ago
    To that end, I agree that rhetoric that many "bargain" and "thrown together" bikes are "death traps" does little to help the conversation. That is, I would expect that quality bikes are safer. I still expect many did just fine on them. (Myself included.)
emn13 10y ago
I think the most impactful difference (visavis safety in NL) aren't the segregated bikepaths - those are common, but not pervasive. Even more important are the car drivers, which are accustomed to bikes, and not as easily surprised when some cyclist makes a sudden appearance in their path. Of course, bikepaths are great in busier parts, but even where they're absent serious traffic injuries aren't common. And that's despite some unnecessary risks (such as lack of lights in the dark) that are taken a little too commonly.

dashundchen 10y ago

As an American who almost exclusively bikes for transportation, I think it comes down to a difference in cycling conditions. Most people I know grew up riding ~$100 Walmart bikes, just as described - steel, heavy, poorly assembled and usually the wrong size. It's quite harrowing to be riding a slow and breakdown-prone bike on 65kph auto-centric roads, when your chain falls off or brakes fail. If there was more segregated cycling infrastructure and denser cities, I think it would be much different. Adding in the fact that most people I know don't know how to change a tire, much less fix or maintain a bike, I'm not surprised they are turned off of cycling entirely by the time they become adults. After riding department store bikes most of my life, I bought a entry level aluminium hybrid bike with quality components for $400 new (vs ~$200 for a department store steel bike). It was life changing to be able to be able to accelerate and maneuver in traffic, and made cycling much more attractive. I could also ride long distances without worrying about breaking down - and if I do, the parts are standard and I can fix it myself.

woah 10y ago

Isn't the difference that in the Netherlands you ride at 15 mph on a dedicated bike street, while in the US you ride with the cars? This explains a lot about the desire for speed, emphasis on safety and maintenance, etc in the US.

Symbiote 10y ago

Weren't those Dutch bikes changing hands for €50 once decent, €350+ bikes? I think they are, that's why they're still working. I was given an £80 bike once, to cycle to work and back every day. It was ruined within 6 months -- the bearings in the hub and bottom bracket were worn out, the brakes wouldn't line up properly, the wheel rims were almost worn through, the gears didn't change properly. People in the Netherlands simply don't buy these bicycles, they'd rather spend €90 on a second hand one. However, the £80 bike is OK for a British adult to cycle 10km round a nature reserve, once or twice per year.

analog31 10y ago

The US has something like 10x the number of cycling fatalities per mile. It is more dangerous here, though I grant you that the main hazard is not the fronts falling off our bikes. I ride a Franken bike that my dad picked out of the trash. It's in good working condition, but in my defense, I simply enjoy tinkering with mechanics as a hobby.