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I discussed this with a few friends. And it's really best if nothing is done with Snowden from the governments perspective. If they pardon him, they say it's a

I discussed this with a few friends. And it's really best if nothing is done with Snowden from the governments perspective. If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings" (even if it's morally correct to do so, they can't have that). If they try to get him to the US for a public trial, who knows what will happen. If they bring him home for a secret trial, the risk rioting or a martyr. Similarly, if they kill him with a direct assassination he will be a martyr, and they'll be dramatically ruining their image. Finally, if they kill him in a covert way, no one will believe it and in all likelihood it will be widely believed it is the governments doing. By leaving him in this limbo, the government can claim what ever they want about him without proving it. At the same time, Snowden has no more info to disclose, although he has a solid and growing cult following. For the record, I signed this as soon as I heard about it and shared it with everyone I knew. I think it's important to be counted and try to share and convince others if your beliefs, if you believe it'll dramatically impact your future. What Snowden did and what he stands for is the last chance to have any form of democracy or privacy. Unfortunately, it appears to have failed, but that doesn't mean you stop trying to improve things. Perhaps, the younger generation (millennials and below) will recognize what he did, as opposed to what the government is trying to spin.

yes_or_gnome 10y ago
What about the possibility that Snowden dies from a freak accident or suspicious circumstances while in exile? Either will look like a government coverup. It's probably better to get him home one way or the other - I'd prefer a pardon -, or you very quietly make sure that all his needs and wants are tended to.
eterm 10y ago
I agree, and I think right now the timing is really bad. It is the wrong time to weaken the IC any further given how that would play in the "IC vs Incoming administration" showdown that seems to be squaring up. "It's OK to share information and run to Russia" is not a good thing to pardon when you're trying to investigate whether people close to the incoming administration have shared information with Russia.
peteretep 10y ago
Surprised they haven't back-channelled a suggestion he moves to a jurisdiction less hostile to the US, like Ecuador for example. They get all the benefits of the above while not needing to worry that FSB will break him or get something useful.
- pvg 10y ago
  That is not something they worry about. They've long assumed everything Snowden took is in the hands of hostile intelligence services. Anything else would be nuts.
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  Assuming the FSB didn't recruit him before his defection to Russia. If they didn't, and he stumbled "by accident" into Russia, they don't need to "break" him at all, having all the leverage they could possible want.
  - Hasknewbie 10y ago
    It's interesting how these supposed ties to Russia conveniently popped up only after he was stranded there only because the US canceled his passport. I remember all the claims of "he was hiding in the Russian consulate in Hong Kong" and "he celebrated his birthday with the Russian ambassador", with zero basis to confirm these until, surprise surprise, it turns out he was relying on a completely different network while there. Just basic and unsubtle character assassination, really.
    - btrask 10y ago
      I'm pretty sure that's why they wanted him stranded there. Letting himself get associated with Russia is one of his few mistakes, although he didn't have many options.
    - bayesian_horse 10y ago
      Who say's he "stranded" in Russia? It may have been Snowden's plan all along. And he didn't have any importance to the world at all, before he fled to Hongkong and Russia. How should "ties to Russia" emerge before? Wouldn't it be more reasonable, if those ties existed, to hide them? Sorry, I know a lot of people don't like hearing it, but Snowden having been recruited by Russia before his defection is just as plausible as him having pure democratic motives and seeking the help of China and Russia. There is absolutely zero reliable information on Snowden's motives.
deleted 10y ago
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pvg 10y ago
>If they try to get him to the US for a public trial He'll likely get convicted. The US would be happy to put him on trial. >If they bring him home for a secret trial, the risk rioting or a martyr Secret trial? Rioting? I think you're overestimating general support for Snowden and have some odd ideas about the way the justice system works.
- zeroer 10y ago
  Could go either way. If I were on the jury, it would hang. I'd be weeded out during jury selection, of course, but there are not a few people like me.
  - pvg 10y ago
    I'm not really seeing it. If you look at Espionage Act cases that involve the actual passing of classified information (rather than, say, intimidating socialists and anarchists), just about everyone gets convicted. Ellsberg and Russo might have been able to rely on public sentiment but charges against them were dismissed. Snowden's position is much weaker.
emsy 10y ago
If they pardon him that doesn't mean he will or has to go back to the US. Also your ""feelings"" argument can easily be refuted: A) There are proves that he did use the official channels first. B) This isn't even a moral but a legal concern. C) You can excuse participation in the Holocaust with it. I see where you're coming from, but you can spin it either way. What I think they should to is to use the pardon to gain trust and create anonymous contact points so that whistleblowers will use the official channels first.
Swizec 10y ago
Lesson: only blow whistles if you plan to become popular. Make sure they're whistles that popular opinion likes amd supports. Politics.
bayesian_horse 10y ago
I'd be careful asserting "what he stands for". At the moment he is at the mercy of the Russian intelligence services and the Russian government, in a nation far more "flexible" about human rights and democracy. Let's just say: if they had a request for some particular information, or a message being delivered to his followers, he isn't exactly in a position to refuse. On the other hand, we know that Russia is recruiting intelligence assets like him all over the western world. It is entirely possible Snowden was recruited by Russian operatives before his defection to Russia, maybe even before stealing the files.
- pvg 10y ago
  He's a valuable Russian intelligence asset who suddenly runs off to Hong Kong to talk to journalists? That doesn't really make much sense.
  - joeclark77 10y ago
    My impression is that he went to the ChiComs first, they decided his stolen files were too hot for them to handle, so he went to Russia as a backup plan.
    - bayesian_horse 10y ago
      Nothing is too hot to handle for a big nation state like China. I don't know exactly why China didn't detain him. But there are a whole lot of possibilities from being to slow off the mark, avoiding ruffled feathers with the US, up to an agreement with Russia. Maybe Snowden really hadn't anything with him in Hong Kong which he hasn't already shared with Journalists and the Russians.
      - cowkingdeluxe 10y ago
        I've assumed that both China and Russia have access to his complete unfiltered information in exchange for his safety. Hard for Snowden to say no to those demands at that point. "Give us everything you have right now and we won't send you back to the US." China does the same for any equipment or planes they seize from the US- inspect the hell out of it and then return it.
atmosx 10y ago
> If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings" (even if it's morally correct to do so, they can't have that). You're missing an important point IMHO. If the NSA is an organisation that works on behalf of the US citizens then he is a hero and the US gov should give him a metal. Right before that, they need to create a sort of structure which allows these guys to express their concerns without being sidelined. If the NSA is an organisation serving the government (or some other more sinister group of people) disregarding US Citizens then you're right. The biggest reason I believe they will not pardon Snowden is to keep the sentiment among three-letter agency officials that he is a traitor because [reasons] and the government doesn't want to go against these guys because they hold the keys to a very dangerous infrastructure that I believe is developing an agenda (and has a mind) of it's own. ps. I might totally off, that's just my take from what I see from far and beyond.
- Philipp__ 10y ago
  You really think NSA (or any other security secret service/organization) work for the citizens? I mean, they should, but you know...
e40 10y ago
Given Obama having just expanded the NSA's powers[1] just before leaving office, it would be out of character for him to pardon Snowden. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/obama-expanding-nsa-powers/513041/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/obama...
sneak 10y ago
Whether a program violates the 4th Amendment or not is not "feelings", it is an objective fact.
argonaut 10y ago
This may be hard to believe on Hacker News, and you and I might think it's wrong, but most Americans do not like Snowden. They've done opinion polls and more than 60% of Americans have a negative opinion of Snowden. Very very few think he's a hero. Politicians want him home for a public trial. But if there's a secret trial or he's assassinated, there will be outrage in certain circles (ACLU/journalists), but he won't be a huge martyr. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde... http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-poll-hero-russia/2016/09/23/id/749866/ http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-po...
- chillwaves 10y ago
  And I think this is ultimately why Obama will not pardon him, because they think it will hurt the democrats politically. Time and again, both sides pick politics over.. anything.
- peteretep 10y ago
  I'm not sure there's as strong a correlation between current opinion of a public figure, and the degree to which their death becomes a cause célèbre.
  - argonaut 10y ago
    Do you have historical American counterexamples? Regardless, while assassination maybe would be a cause celebre, almost certainly a trial would be politically popular.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      Lincoln: "It was only with his death that Lincoln's popularity soared. Lincoln was slain on Good Friday, and pastors who had for four years criticized Lincoln from their pulpits rewrote their Easter Sunday sermons to remember him as an American Moses who brought his people out of slavery but was not allowed to cross over into the Promised Land" From: http://www.civilwar.org/hallowed-ground-magazine/unpopular-mr-lincoln.html http://www.civilwar.org/hallowed-ground-magazine/unpopular-m...
varjag 10y ago
There's a good chance Snowden will be extradited by Russia soon, to bolster Trump in his standoff with U.S. intelligence. Then the whole pardon debate is moot.
deleted 10y ago
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lucker 10y ago
>If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings" Ah, but the thing is, they built the domestic surveillance infrastructure based on "feelings" — after all, the real threat of terrorism is minor compared to all sorts of other dangers the resources could have been spent on. And the idea that they really did it because of terrorism is pretty much the most charitable interpretation of why they did it — it is easy to devise darker ones. If they don't pardon Snowden, then they are saying (yet again) that it is alright for the government to waste our tax money — in secret and in order to spy on us, no less — based on feelings.

yes_or_gnome 10y ago

What about the possibility that Snowden dies from a freak accident or suspicious circumstances while in exile? Either will look like a government coverup. It's probably better to get him home one way or the other - I'd prefer a pardon -, or you very quietly make sure that all his needs and wants are tended to.

eterm 10y ago

I agree, and I think right now the timing is really bad. It is the wrong time to weaken the IC any further given how that would play in the "IC vs Incoming administration" showdown that seems to be squaring up. "It's OK to share information and run to Russia" is not a good thing to pardon when you're trying to investigate whether people close to the incoming administration have shared information with Russia.

peteretep 10y ago

Surprised they haven't back-channelled a suggestion he moves to a jurisdiction less hostile to the US, like Ecuador for example. They get all the benefits of the above while not needing to worry that FSB will break him or get something useful.

pvg 10y ago
That is not something they worry about. They've long assumed everything Snowden took is in the hands of hostile intelligence services. Anything else would be nuts.
bayesian_horse 10y ago
Assuming the FSB didn't recruit him before his defection to Russia. If they didn't, and he stumbled "by accident" into Russia, they don't need to "break" him at all, having all the leverage they could possible want.
- Hasknewbie 10y ago
  It's interesting how these supposed ties to Russia conveniently popped up only after he was stranded there only because the US canceled his passport. I remember all the claims of "he was hiding in the Russian consulate in Hong Kong" and "he celebrated his birthday with the Russian ambassador", with zero basis to confirm these until, surprise surprise, it turns out he was relying on a completely different network while there. Just basic and unsubtle character assassination, really.
  - btrask 10y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's why they wanted him stranded there. Letting himself get associated with Russia is one of his few mistakes, although he didn't have many options.
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    Who say's he "stranded" in Russia? It may have been Snowden's plan all along. And he didn't have any importance to the world at all, before he fled to Hongkong and Russia. How should "ties to Russia" emerge before? Wouldn't it be more reasonable, if those ties existed, to hide them? Sorry, I know a lot of people don't like hearing it, but Snowden having been recruited by Russia before his defection is just as plausible as him having pure democratic motives and seeking the help of China and Russia. There is absolutely zero reliable information on Snowden's motives.

deleted 10y ago

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pvg 10y ago

>If they try to get him to the US for a public trial He'll likely get convicted. The US would be happy to put him on trial. >If they bring him home for a secret trial, the risk rioting or a martyr Secret trial? Rioting? I think you're overestimating general support for Snowden and have some odd ideas about the way the justice system works.

zeroer 10y ago
Could go either way. If I were on the jury, it would hang. I'd be weeded out during jury selection, of course, but there are not a few people like me.
- pvg 10y ago
  I'm not really seeing it. If you look at Espionage Act cases that involve the actual passing of classified information (rather than, say, intimidating socialists and anarchists), just about everyone gets convicted. Ellsberg and Russo might have been able to rely on public sentiment but charges against them were dismissed. Snowden's position is much weaker.

emsy 10y ago

If they pardon him that doesn't mean he will or has to go back to the US. Also your ""feelings"" argument can easily be refuted: A) There are proves that he did use the official channels first. B) This isn't even a moral but a legal concern. C) You can excuse participation in the Holocaust with it. I see where you're coming from, but you can spin it either way. What I think they should to is to use the pardon to gain trust and create anonymous contact points so that whistleblowers will use the official channels first.

Swizec 10y ago

Lesson: only blow whistles if you plan to become popular. Make sure they're whistles that popular opinion likes amd supports. Politics.

bayesian_horse 10y ago

I'd be careful asserting "what he stands for". At the moment he is at the mercy of the Russian intelligence services and the Russian government, in a nation far more "flexible" about human rights and democracy. Let's just say: if they had a request for some particular information, or a message being delivered to his followers, he isn't exactly in a position to refuse. On the other hand, we know that Russia is recruiting intelligence assets like him all over the western world. It is entirely possible Snowden was recruited by Russian operatives before his defection to Russia, maybe even before stealing the files.

pvg 10y ago
He's a valuable Russian intelligence asset who suddenly runs off to Hong Kong to talk to journalists? That doesn't really make much sense.
- joeclark77 10y ago
  My impression is that he went to the ChiComs first, they decided his stolen files were too hot for them to handle, so he went to Russia as a backup plan.
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    Nothing is too hot to handle for a big nation state like China. I don't know exactly why China didn't detain him. But there are a whole lot of possibilities from being to slow off the mark, avoiding ruffled feathers with the US, up to an agreement with Russia. Maybe Snowden really hadn't anything with him in Hong Kong which he hasn't already shared with Journalists and the Russians.
    - cowkingdeluxe 10y ago
      I've assumed that both China and Russia have access to his complete unfiltered information in exchange for his safety. Hard for Snowden to say no to those demands at that point. "Give us everything you have right now and we won't send you back to the US." China does the same for any equipment or planes they seize from the US- inspect the hell out of it and then return it.

atmosx 10y ago

> If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings" (even if it's morally correct to do so, they can't have that). You're missing an important point IMHO. If the NSA is an organisation that works on behalf of the US citizens then he is a hero and the US gov should give him a metal. Right before that, they need to create a sort of structure which allows these guys to express their concerns without being sidelined. If the NSA is an organisation serving the government (or some other more sinister group of people) disregarding US Citizens then you're right. The biggest reason I believe they will not pardon Snowden is to keep the sentiment among three-letter agency officials that he is a traitor because [reasons] and the government doesn't want to go against these guys because they hold the keys to a very dangerous infrastructure that I believe is developing an agenda (and has a mind) of it's own. ps. I might totally off, that's just my take from what I see from far and beyond.

Philipp__ 10y ago
You really think NSA (or any other security secret service/organization) work for the citizens? I mean, they should, but you know...

e40 10y ago

Given Obama having just expanded the NSA's powers[1] just before leaving office, it would be out of character for him to pardon Snowden. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/obama-expanding-nsa-powers/513041/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/obama...

sneak 10y ago

Whether a program violates the 4th Amendment or not is not "feelings", it is an objective fact.

argonaut 10y ago

This may be hard to believe on Hacker News, and you and I might think it's wrong, but most Americans do not like Snowden. They've done opinion polls and more than 60% of Americans have a negative opinion of Snowden. Very very few think he's a hero. Politicians want him home for a public trial. But if there's a secret trial or he's assassinated, there will be outrage in certain circles (ACLU/journalists), but he won't be a huge martyr. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde... http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-poll-hero-russia/2016/09/23/id/749866/ http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-po...

chillwaves 10y ago
And I think this is ultimately why Obama will not pardon him, because they think it will hurt the democrats politically. Time and again, both sides pick politics over.. anything.
peteretep 10y ago
I'm not sure there's as strong a correlation between current opinion of a public figure, and the degree to which their death becomes a cause célèbre.
- argonaut 10y ago
  Do you have historical American counterexamples? Regardless, while assassination maybe would be a cause celebre, almost certainly a trial would be politically popular.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    Lincoln: "It was only with his death that Lincoln's popularity soared. Lincoln was slain on Good Friday, and pastors who had for four years criticized Lincoln from their pulpits rewrote their Easter Sunday sermons to remember him as an American Moses who brought his people out of slavery but was not allowed to cross over into the Promised Land" From: http://www.civilwar.org/hallowed-ground-magazine/unpopular-mr-lincoln.html http://www.civilwar.org/hallowed-ground-magazine/unpopular-m...

varjag 10y ago

There's a good chance Snowden will be extradited by Russia soon, to bolster Trump in his standoff with U.S. intelligence. Then the whole pardon debate is moot.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lucker 10y ago

>If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings" Ah, but the thing is, they built the domestic surveillance infrastructure based on "feelings" — after all, the real threat of terrorism is minor compared to all sorts of other dangers the resources could have been spent on. And the idea that they really did it because of terrorism is pretty much the most charitable interpretation of why they did it — it is easy to devise darker ones. If they don't pardon Snowden, then they are saying (yet again) that it is alright for the government to waste our tax money — in secret and in order to spy on us, no less — based on feelings.