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Tesla Blog Post: https://www.tesla.com/blog/building-supercharger-network-future https://www.tesla.com/blog/building-supercharger-network-fut...

by Urgo 10y ago

DanFeldman 10y ago
> To put the affordability of Supercharging into perspective, customers will pay about $15 for a road trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles, about $120 from Los Angeles to New York, about €60 from Paris to Rome, and about ¥400 from Beijing to Shanghai.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dingo_bat 10y ago
  Is electricity generation using renewable sources inherently cheaper than coal, hydro and nuclear?
  - RichardHeart 10y ago
    It depends on where you live. Lots of wind? Lots of sun hours? Lots of subsidies?
  - zaroth 10y ago
    No, see LCOE. (which can be calculated with or without accounting for externalities) Not surprisingly all current technology is relatively competitive with the others. If it wasn't the case, we would have a clear winner and there would be nothing interesting to discuss! https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/08/f25/LCOE.pdf https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/08/f25/LCOE.pdf
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      What does this mean for the folk who loudly proclaim "[solar/wind] now cheaper than coal"?
      - nradov 10y ago
        Solar and wind power can be cheaper than coal (by spot price) in certain limited areas at certain times of the day. The problem is that solar and wind are incapable of providing reliable base load capacity. Once you add energy storage (batteries, molten salt, pumped hydroelectric, etc) to provide power when it's dark with no wind blowing the costs go way up.
  - prostoalex 10y ago
    Not inherently, but renewables generally have high cap-ex but low op-ex. Therefore highly depends on your entry price (this year's solar panels are cheaper than last year's). Seems like solar is at 3c/kWh (production cost before transportation) in certain regions now http://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-prices-plunge-to-new-lows-as-dubai-auction-nets-under-3ckwh-84894/ http://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-prices-plunge-to-new-lows-a...
- tedmiston 10y ago
  For reference using a Prius ~52 mpg combined (advertised) and current gas price in SF, for the drive from SF to LA: 383 / 52 * $2.61 = $19.22 Or a Honda Civic: 383 / 34 * $2.61 = $29.40 (Assuming their definition is one way not roundtrip.)
  - tuna-piano 10y ago
    And in other US states and points in time, gas is cheaper. For example, in December in Greenville, SC gas was $1.90 a gallon which would make gas in a prius cheaper than the Tesla supercharger. 382 / 52 * $1.90 = $14 Data from (I used Greenville, SC): https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts EDIT: From Tesla's blog post "What’s important is that in every region, Supercharging will remain simple, seamless and always significantly cheaper than gasoline." Looks like Tesla will be pricing the electricity differently in different states as well. I wonder if the changes in their electricity prices based on the region will be enough to offset currently low gas prices.
    - dlevine 10y ago
      With that said, I'm guessing that the current cost estimates are based on a Model S, which is a much larger car than either a Prius or Civic. The Model 3 will most likely have significantly better range per kwh than the Model S, reducing the cost even more.
      - coredog64 10y ago
        A Prius is surprisingly large inside. EPA cargo volume for the rear with seats up (5 passengers) is about the same as the Model S. The frunk adds an additional 5 cubic feet.
      - tedmiston 10y ago
        Yeah, good point. I mainly just picked those two because of popularity.
    - URSpider94 10y ago
      ... but supercharging in SC will be roughly half the cost of what it is in CA, meaning the equivalent trip would only cost $7.50 in a Tesla.
tavrobel 10y ago
What was the deal before this? Just free electricity? This seems like a pretty fair and obvious way to move forward: the electricity isn't free, and it doesn't seem like they are attempting to turn a profit off of the electricity cost like a Gas station does. It curtails the externalities of Uber/Taxis freeloading off of infrastructure that has ongoing costs to maintain but provides a good value for buyers for a few longer distance trips.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- will_hughes 10y ago
  (The other reply answering this seems to have been deleted) It used to be unlimited supercharging. The assumption was that people would primarily charge at home, and use the supercharger only for long distance travelling. It seems that in practice far too many people were using the supercharger as the only place to charge their vehicle, with a fair number of people using it for commercial purposes. The Tesla Taxis at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam were apparently all using the supercharger facility, rather than setting up their own charging infrastructure. Also, it wasn't, technically, 'free' - a supercharger fee was charged either on purchase of the car or afterwards.
  - prostoalex 10y ago
    > Also, it wasn't, technically, 'free' - a supercharger fee was charged either on purchase of the car or afterwards. Not in the US, all Tesla vehicles ordered before January 15th of 2017 came with free supercharger access.
    - dingaling 10y ago
      > came with free supercharger access. By no means 'free': there was a $2000 Supercharger access fee included in the purchase price of the S85, or $2500 to enable it after purchase for the S60. Not available for the S40 variant which wasn't permitted to use the Superchargers.

Tesla Blog Post: https://www.tesla.com/blog/building-supercharger-network-future https://www.tesla.com/blog/building-supercharger-network-fut...

by Urgo 10y ago

Tesla Blog Post: https://www.tesla.com/blog/building-supercharger-network-future https://www.tesla.com/blog/building-supercharger-network-fut...

DanFeldman 10y ago

> To put the affordability of Supercharging into perspective, customers will pay about $15 for a road trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles, about $120 from Los Angeles to New York, about €60 from Paris to Rome, and about ¥400 from Beijing to Shanghai.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dingo_bat 10y ago
Is electricity generation using renewable sources inherently cheaper than coal, hydro and nuclear?
- RichardHeart 10y ago
  It depends on where you live. Lots of wind? Lots of sun hours? Lots of subsidies?
- zaroth 10y ago
  No, see LCOE. (which can be calculated with or without accounting for externalities) Not surprisingly all current technology is relatively competitive with the others. If it wasn't the case, we would have a clear winner and there would be nothing interesting to discuss! https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/08/f25/LCOE.pdf https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/08/f25/LCOE.pdf
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    What does this mean for the folk who loudly proclaim "[solar/wind] now cheaper than coal"?
    - nradov 10y ago
      Solar and wind power can be cheaper than coal (by spot price) in certain limited areas at certain times of the day. The problem is that solar and wind are incapable of providing reliable base load capacity. Once you add energy storage (batteries, molten salt, pumped hydroelectric, etc) to provide power when it's dark with no wind blowing the costs go way up.
- prostoalex 10y ago
  Not inherently, but renewables generally have high cap-ex but low op-ex. Therefore highly depends on your entry price (this year's solar panels are cheaper than last year's). Seems like solar is at 3c/kWh (production cost before transportation) in certain regions now http://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-prices-plunge-to-new-lows-as-dubai-auction-nets-under-3ckwh-84894/ http://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-prices-plunge-to-new-lows-a...
tedmiston 10y ago
For reference using a Prius ~52 mpg combined (advertised) and current gas price in SF, for the drive from SF to LA: 383 / 52 * $2.61 = $19.22 Or a Honda Civic: 383 / 34 * $2.61 = $29.40 (Assuming their definition is one way not roundtrip.)
- tuna-piano 10y ago
  And in other US states and points in time, gas is cheaper. For example, in December in Greenville, SC gas was $1.90 a gallon which would make gas in a prius cheaper than the Tesla supercharger. 382 / 52 * $1.90 = $14 Data from (I used Greenville, SC): https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts EDIT: From Tesla's blog post "What’s important is that in every region, Supercharging will remain simple, seamless and always significantly cheaper than gasoline." Looks like Tesla will be pricing the electricity differently in different states as well. I wonder if the changes in their electricity prices based on the region will be enough to offset currently low gas prices.
  - dlevine 10y ago
    With that said, I'm guessing that the current cost estimates are based on a Model S, which is a much larger car than either a Prius or Civic. The Model 3 will most likely have significantly better range per kwh than the Model S, reducing the cost even more.
    - coredog64 10y ago
      A Prius is surprisingly large inside. EPA cargo volume for the rear with seats up (5 passengers) is about the same as the Model S. The frunk adds an additional 5 cubic feet.
    - tedmiston 10y ago
      Yeah, good point. I mainly just picked those two because of popularity.
  - URSpider94 10y ago
    ... but supercharging in SC will be roughly half the cost of what it is in CA, meaning the equivalent trip would only cost $7.50 in a Tesla.

tavrobel 10y ago

What was the deal before this? Just free electricity? This seems like a pretty fair and obvious way to move forward: the electricity isn't free, and it doesn't seem like they are attempting to turn a profit off of the electricity cost like a Gas station does. It curtails the externalities of Uber/Taxis freeloading off of infrastructure that has ongoing costs to maintain but provides a good value for buyers for a few longer distance trips.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
will_hughes 10y ago
(The other reply answering this seems to have been deleted) It used to be unlimited supercharging. The assumption was that people would primarily charge at home, and use the supercharger only for long distance travelling. It seems that in practice far too many people were using the supercharger as the only place to charge their vehicle, with a fair number of people using it for commercial purposes. The Tesla Taxis at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam were apparently all using the supercharger facility, rather than setting up their own charging infrastructure. Also, it wasn't, technically, 'free' - a supercharger fee was charged either on purchase of the car or afterwards.
- prostoalex 10y ago
  > Also, it wasn't, technically, 'free' - a supercharger fee was charged either on purchase of the car or afterwards. Not in the US, all Tesla vehicles ordered before January 15th of 2017 came with free supercharger access.
  - dingaling 10y ago
    > came with free supercharger access. By no means 'free': there was a $2000 Supercharger access fee included in the purchase price of the S85, or $2500 to enable it after purchase for the S60. Not available for the S40 variant which wasn't permitted to use the Superchargers.