8 ms·

The illustrated guide to a Ph.D. (2010)

66 points by mohitchawla 10y ago

tmoot 10y ago
so just Matt Might's article. great. :|
- tom_mellior 10y ago
  For completeness, here is the link to the original: http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - j-pb 10y ago
    Seriously? Did the mods also fuck with that link? I don't care if the other post was a ripoff I still would like to read it.
    - StreakyCobra 10y ago
      I don't know if the link above has been changed by mods or was a mistake, but here is the link to the original article: https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883 https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883 The original content is licensed under a CC license [1], and now (it probably has been updated) the reposter is respecting the terms of it: 1. Please attribute the original work to me (Matt Might) and link back to this page in your reproduction: http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ as The Illustrated Guide to a Ph.D. 2.When you attribute, please also link my name, Matt Might, to http://matt.might.net/ 3.And, don't forget the "Keep pushing," at the bottom! So I don't see any reason why the original link can't be shared in thread's comments, especially because people should be allowed to see by themselves the original article in order to forge their own opinion on discussions happening here. [1] http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/#license http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/#licen...
      - tom_mellior 10y ago
        > and now (it probably has been updated) the reposter is respecting the terms of it The reposter still doesn't link back to the actual article as requested, though that's just a "please" clause. I guess naming (and even linking) the author and giving the title suffices to satisfy the attribution clause of the license.
        StreakyCobra 10y ago
        > The reposter still doesn't link back to the actual article as requested, though that's just a "please" clause. I guess naming (and even linking) the author and giving the title suffices to satisfy the attribution clause of the license. Indeed, I thought there was a link to the blog post, but there is not any. The situation is different than before though, as the real author is now at least credited.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - tom_mellior 10y ago
      By "original" I meant where the content originally came from, not the "original ripoff link". So no, the mods did not change that, I did link to Matt Might's site.
      - mohitchawla 10y ago
        What is the point? Since the repost respects all the clauses mentioned by Matt under CC license. If you feel changing the link to original is appropriate, then its okay.
swingbridge 10y ago
This is old and has been out there for ages. Regardless it's still one of my favorite simple communications of a concept.
sidlls 10y ago
Is the dichotomy at the end of the Might's article content accurate? It seems too black-and-white to me, but I didn't go through a CS curriculum. Do MS/CS students not have to do original research or read research papers?
- torrent-of-ions 10y ago
  There is such a thing as a masters by research. I guess the article is talking about a taught masters.
- pfooti 10y ago
  I have a MS in computer science that I got at UC Berkeley. I had to take a lot of classes and write a thesis. Primarily, the thesis involved the design and implementation of something interesting (at the time, at least), and then I wrote about what it was, how it worked, and so on. I also got a PhD in science education at UCB, and that required writing a research proposal, carrying out a six-month classroom intervention, and a lot of other work on both sides of the research (design and framing the work, analyzing the data). The amount of work was very different. The number of classes was not too different - I had about the same number of credits. All that said, my experience in academia (and out) has taught me that a degree is only one indicator among many. I've had doors open to me because of my degree, advisors' connections, and where my degree was granted, some doors I did not particularly deserve, but the degree itself only shows that I can do a certain kind of work when I want to. I've met plenty of other people who can do the same kind of work who don't have the same kind of (or any) degree. So, it feels like one of those 'neither necessary nor sufficient' sorts of things.
- nolepointer 10y ago
  In my department (mid-tier university, I suppose), yes, an MS degree can be earned simply by taking courses (11 courses and a seminar on research). Alternatively, one can complete a project (9 courses, research seminar, and project defense) or a thesis (8 courses, research seminar, and thesis defense). However, even if you choose the course option, you will still have to read plenty of papers in your courses.
- snovv_crash 10y ago
agounaris 10y ago
"A PhD degree equips you to do original research and potentially lead R&D teams." No you don't need a PhD to lead R&D teams...you don't even need a degree to do that. And no you don't even need a PhD to push human knowledge. Too few of those who did push it, did it through a PhD. In fact its just "possible" that a PhD will push the boundary. Usually it does not.
- nickflees 10y ago
  He didn't say that you can't lead an R&D team without a PhD. He said it equips you to do so. There's no claim about it being the exclusive path to leading an R&D team.
- etrevino 10y ago
  PhD theses are supposed to push the boundary of knowledge. I'd posit that if it doesn't it shouldn't be accepted and the student be sent back to his or her research. That being said, sometimes pushing the boundary of knowledge is exploring new processes to do the same old thing. We shouldn't downplay that; those are genuine contributions.
StreakyCobra 10y ago
> 4. Ability to work with poorly defined goals. This is the most difficult part of a PhD for me. Note: This quote is from the article on which this thread was pointing to before it has been changed by mods. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13382223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13382223
- uncletaco 10y ago
  It is actually the part of the PhD that led me to terminate with my masters. Three years later I'm still back and forth on whether I did the right thing.
  - sevensor 10y ago
    I bailed on a PhD with a terminal master's in 2004, worked as an engineer at a factory for a few years, and completed a PhD in a different field in 2016. In hindsight, both decisions were right, and having finished the PhD in one field, I don't think I would have been happy with a PhD in the other.
    - wikibob 10y ago
      I'm interested in your story, can you tell a bit of it? I'm trying to figure out if it's the right choice for me to pursue a PhD. What was your research experience like? I've seen a few sources mention the advisor conflict of interest (no incentive to help you finish and graduate because they will lose you after) that you mentioned earlier. Do you think this always a is a significant problem, or only if one is unaware of it?
      - sevensor 10y ago
        My first time in grad school (E.E.), I was really young and naive. I'd barely had any real-world experience of any kind, and I was very good at taking classes. So I signed up for a Ph.D. program and had a lot of fun doing the coursework. But then when it came time to do actual grad student things, like original research and paper writing, I was totally unprepared and my advisor showed me the door. The second time around, I think I still went into grad school for the wrong reasons, but they were different wrong reasons. After dealing with a lot of people who were woefully underprepared to work in industry, I thought getting a Ph.D. would put me in a position to fix the next generation. I underestimated how little the academy wants to do that. I opted not to continue in academia once I got my Ph.D. Regarding my specific research experience, I'm not sure where to begin. You work like a dog, your advisor probably doesn't agree with your conclusions, might not agree with your premises either, and he wants you to go back and read an ocean of literature. Repeat for 4-10 years. Advisor conflict of interest varies from advisor to advisor. Some of them like to produce lots of successful students, others like free labor. Either way, bear in mind that the advisor has his own agenda and is not just advising you out of the goodness of his heart. Final piece of advice: read some "quit lit" to get a perspective on the academic job market. Read some of the critical responses to "quit lit" by academics who haven't quit. (http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/no-one-cares-that-you-quit-your-job/404467/ http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/no-one-cares-that-y..., https://chroniclevitae.com/news/216-why-so-many-academics-quit-and-tell https://chroniclevitae.com/news/216-why-so-many-academics-qu..., https://historiann.com/2015/10/07/tired-of-academic-quit-lit-another-view-on-academic-labor/ https://historiann.com/2015/10/07/tired-of-academic-quit-lit...). Bear in mind that if you're in an engineering field the job market isn't quite as bleak as in the sciences, or worse yet, the humanities. But it's no picnic either.
norswap 10y ago
Ah, the mighty diagram. It's been a while. It reflects the mainstream and very unfortunate view of academia inside academia. (Disclosure: I'm a PhD student)
- tom_mellior 10y ago
  So what's your view?
wheaties 10y ago
I'd just like to say that a master's degree makes you a better leader in the same sense that reading a book does. Knowledge is great but knowledge alone doesn't do diddly-squat for becoming an effective leader. That takes soft skills. I know, I have a master's myself. It taught me nothing about what a tech lead or manager needed to understand.
guaka 10y ago
Not mentioned in the article is the strange workings of scientific publishing. In my 20s I found writing open source software much more interesting than writing scientific papers describing the software. Whereas to me at that time it seemed everyone else was describing the buggy collection of Matlab code in articles without publishing any of the code (or datasets used), making it impossible to reproduce their results. The topic of my unfinished PhD was finding structure in musical pieces with AI.
cauthon 10y ago
The content of this article is lifted entirely from Matt Might's famous post; I'm not sure what value the author intended to add by rehosting it. http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/
- iplaw 10y ago
  Props to mods and/or OP for changing the link from a reposter's blog to the original source. In order to give at least a portion of the comments in this thread context, the original post linked to a recent blog post which wholesale copied Matt's article with de minimis attribution.
- bluesroo 10y ago
  It looks like someone changed the post's link to Matt Might's now.
  - dang 10y ago
    Yes, a mod changed it from https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883#.qatl5reqn https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883#... a little while ago.
- mohitchawla 10y ago
  The intent was to increase the reach of this awesome article by publishing the same on medium. Matt has been appropriately credited, his simple yet good representation should reach all those whom it might help.
iplaw 10y ago
It seems a little nefarious to blanket copy Matt Might's article, lead it with some emphasized and bolded statements that give the impression that the article is the work of the poster and distract from the plain text attribution. It looks like a bunch of hand-waving that results in a person skimming the article believing that the poster is the author.
- whorleater 10y ago
  Yeah, the author of this repost doesn't even bother to fully follow all the license guidelines from Matt Might. Ironically this would be considered plagiarism in any academic setting.
  - mohitchawla 10y ago
    All the license guidelines are followed, MATT has been appropriately credited at the beginning as well as end of the article. The intent of the repost was to increase the reach of the awesome article. If you still want to, keep illustrating ironies. OR you could comment something that adds value of any kind to the community.
  - iplaw 10y ago
    Great ...
carc1n0gen 10y ago
Really like how minimal but not ugly that blog is
activatedgeek 10y ago
Somebody had explained this to me in words long ago. Interesting to finally see the visual representation!
iplaw 10y ago
I pointed out that this guy failed to properly attribute the work, and he blocked me on Medium. What a piece of work.

66 points by mohitchawla 10y ago

tmoot 10y ago

so just Matt Might's article. great. :|

tom_mellior 10y ago
For completeness, here is the link to the original: http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- j-pb 10y ago
  Seriously? Did the mods also fuck with that link? I don't care if the other post was a ripoff I still would like to read it.
  - StreakyCobra 10y ago
    I don't know if the link above has been changed by mods or was a mistake, but here is the link to the original article: https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883 https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883 The original content is licensed under a CC license [1], and now (it probably has been updated) the reposter is respecting the terms of it: 1. Please attribute the original work to me (Matt Might) and link back to this page in your reproduction: http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ as The Illustrated Guide to a Ph.D. 2.When you attribute, please also link my name, Matt Might, to http://matt.might.net/ 3.And, don't forget the "Keep pushing," at the bottom! So I don't see any reason why the original link can't be shared in thread's comments, especially because people should be allowed to see by themselves the original article in order to forge their own opinion on discussions happening here. [1] http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/#license http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/#licen...
    - tom_mellior 10y ago
      > and now (it probably has been updated) the reposter is respecting the terms of it The reposter still doesn't link back to the actual article as requested, though that's just a "please" clause. I guess naming (and even linking) the author and giving the title suffices to satisfy the attribution clause of the license.
      - StreakyCobra 10y ago
        > The reposter still doesn't link back to the actual article as requested, though that's just a "please" clause. I guess naming (and even linking) the author and giving the title suffices to satisfy the attribution clause of the license. Indeed, I thought there was a link to the blog post, but there is not any. The situation is different than before though, as the real author is now at least credited.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - tom_mellior 10y ago
    By "original" I meant where the content originally came from, not the "original ripoff link". So no, the mods did not change that, I did link to Matt Might's site.
    - mohitchawla 10y ago
      What is the point? Since the repost respects all the clauses mentioned by Matt under CC license. If you feel changing the link to original is appropriate, then its okay.

swingbridge 10y ago

This is old and has been out there for ages. Regardless it's still one of my favorite simple communications of a concept.

sidlls 10y ago

Is the dichotomy at the end of the Might's article content accurate? It seems too black-and-white to me, but I didn't go through a CS curriculum. Do MS/CS students not have to do original research or read research papers?

torrent-of-ions 10y ago
There is such a thing as a masters by research. I guess the article is talking about a taught masters.
pfooti 10y ago
I have a MS in computer science that I got at UC Berkeley. I had to take a lot of classes and write a thesis. Primarily, the thesis involved the design and implementation of something interesting (at the time, at least), and then I wrote about what it was, how it worked, and so on. I also got a PhD in science education at UCB, and that required writing a research proposal, carrying out a six-month classroom intervention, and a lot of other work on both sides of the research (design and framing the work, analyzing the data). The amount of work was very different. The number of classes was not too different - I had about the same number of credits. All that said, my experience in academia (and out) has taught me that a degree is only one indicator among many. I've had doors open to me because of my degree, advisors' connections, and where my degree was granted, some doors I did not particularly deserve, but the degree itself only shows that I can do a certain kind of work when I want to. I've met plenty of other people who can do the same kind of work who don't have the same kind of (or any) degree. So, it feels like one of those 'neither necessary nor sufficient' sorts of things.
nolepointer 10y ago
In my department (mid-tier university, I suppose), yes, an MS degree can be earned simply by taking courses (11 courses and a seminar on research). Alternatively, one can complete a project (9 courses, research seminar, and project defense) or a thesis (8 courses, research seminar, and thesis defense). However, even if you choose the course option, you will still have to read plenty of papers in your courses.
snovv_crash 10y ago

agounaris 10y ago

"A PhD degree equips you to do original research and potentially lead R&D teams." No you don't need a PhD to lead R&D teams...you don't even need a degree to do that. And no you don't even need a PhD to push human knowledge. Too few of those who did push it, did it through a PhD. In fact its just "possible" that a PhD will push the boundary. Usually it does not.

nickflees 10y ago
He didn't say that you can't lead an R&D team without a PhD. He said it equips you to do so. There's no claim about it being the exclusive path to leading an R&D team.
etrevino 10y ago
PhD theses are supposed to push the boundary of knowledge. I'd posit that if it doesn't it shouldn't be accepted and the student be sent back to his or her research. That being said, sometimes pushing the boundary of knowledge is exploring new processes to do the same old thing. We shouldn't downplay that; those are genuine contributions.

StreakyCobra 10y ago

> 4. Ability to work with poorly defined goals. This is the most difficult part of a PhD for me. Note: This quote is from the article on which this thread was pointing to before it has been changed by mods. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13382223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13382223

uncletaco 10y ago
It is actually the part of the PhD that led me to terminate with my masters. Three years later I'm still back and forth on whether I did the right thing.
- sevensor 10y ago
  I bailed on a PhD with a terminal master's in 2004, worked as an engineer at a factory for a few years, and completed a PhD in a different field in 2016. In hindsight, both decisions were right, and having finished the PhD in one field, I don't think I would have been happy with a PhD in the other.
  - wikibob 10y ago
    I'm interested in your story, can you tell a bit of it? I'm trying to figure out if it's the right choice for me to pursue a PhD. What was your research experience like? I've seen a few sources mention the advisor conflict of interest (no incentive to help you finish and graduate because they will lose you after) that you mentioned earlier. Do you think this always a is a significant problem, or only if one is unaware of it?
    - sevensor 10y ago
      My first time in grad school (E.E.), I was really young and naive. I'd barely had any real-world experience of any kind, and I was very good at taking classes. So I signed up for a Ph.D. program and had a lot of fun doing the coursework. But then when it came time to do actual grad student things, like original research and paper writing, I was totally unprepared and my advisor showed me the door. The second time around, I think I still went into grad school for the wrong reasons, but they were different wrong reasons. After dealing with a lot of people who were woefully underprepared to work in industry, I thought getting a Ph.D. would put me in a position to fix the next generation. I underestimated how little the academy wants to do that. I opted not to continue in academia once I got my Ph.D. Regarding my specific research experience, I'm not sure where to begin. You work like a dog, your advisor probably doesn't agree with your conclusions, might not agree with your premises either, and he wants you to go back and read an ocean of literature. Repeat for 4-10 years. Advisor conflict of interest varies from advisor to advisor. Some of them like to produce lots of successful students, others like free labor. Either way, bear in mind that the advisor has his own agenda and is not just advising you out of the goodness of his heart. Final piece of advice: read some "quit lit" to get a perspective on the academic job market. Read some of the critical responses to "quit lit" by academics who haven't quit. (http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/no-one-cares-that-you-quit-your-job/404467/ http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/no-one-cares-that-y..., https://chroniclevitae.com/news/216-why-so-many-academics-quit-and-tell https://chroniclevitae.com/news/216-why-so-many-academics-qu..., https://historiann.com/2015/10/07/tired-of-academic-quit-lit-another-view-on-academic-labor/ https://historiann.com/2015/10/07/tired-of-academic-quit-lit...). Bear in mind that if you're in an engineering field the job market isn't quite as bleak as in the sciences, or worse yet, the humanities. But it's no picnic either.

norswap 10y ago

Ah, the mighty diagram. It's been a while. It reflects the mainstream and very unfortunate view of academia inside academia. (Disclosure: I'm a PhD student)

tom_mellior 10y ago
So what's your view?

wheaties 10y ago

I'd just like to say that a master's degree makes you a better leader in the same sense that reading a book does. Knowledge is great but knowledge alone doesn't do diddly-squat for becoming an effective leader. That takes soft skills. I know, I have a master's myself. It taught me nothing about what a tech lead or manager needed to understand.

guaka 10y ago

Not mentioned in the article is the strange workings of scientific publishing. In my 20s I found writing open source software much more interesting than writing scientific papers describing the software. Whereas to me at that time it seemed everyone else was describing the buggy collection of Matlab code in articles without publishing any of the code (or datasets used), making it impossible to reproduce their results. The topic of my unfinished PhD was finding structure in musical pieces with AI.

cauthon 10y ago

The content of this article is lifted entirely from Matt Might's famous post; I'm not sure what value the author intended to add by rehosting it. http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/

iplaw 10y ago
Props to mods and/or OP for changing the link from a reposter's blog to the original source. In order to give at least a portion of the comments in this thread context, the original post linked to a recent blog post which wholesale copied Matt's article with de minimis attribution.
bluesroo 10y ago
It looks like someone changed the post's link to Matt Might's now.
- dang 10y ago
  Yes, a mod changed it from https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883#.qatl5reqn https://thebittheories.com/masters-versus-ph-d-2b26ef33f883#... a little while ago.
mohitchawla 10y ago
The intent was to increase the reach of this awesome article by publishing the same on medium. Matt has been appropriately credited, his simple yet good representation should reach all those whom it might help.

iplaw 10y ago

It seems a little nefarious to blanket copy Matt Might's article, lead it with some emphasized and bolded statements that give the impression that the article is the work of the poster and distract from the plain text attribution. It looks like a bunch of hand-waving that results in a person skimming the article believing that the poster is the author.

whorleater 10y ago
Yeah, the author of this repost doesn't even bother to fully follow all the license guidelines from Matt Might. Ironically this would be considered plagiarism in any academic setting.
- mohitchawla 10y ago
  All the license guidelines are followed, MATT has been appropriately credited at the beginning as well as end of the article. The intent of the repost was to increase the reach of the awesome article. If you still want to, keep illustrating ironies. OR you could comment something that adds value of any kind to the community.
- iplaw 10y ago
  Great ...

carc1n0gen 10y ago

Really like how minimal but not ugly that blog is

activatedgeek 10y ago

Somebody had explained this to me in words long ago. Interesting to finally see the visual representation!

iplaw 10y ago

I pointed out that this guy failed to properly attribute the work, and he blocked me on Medium. What a piece of work.