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Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. Every day there is something posted here, on Redd

Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. Every day there is something posted here, on Reddit, or Twitter by another developer moving to Linux and not looking back. A oft-used retort is developers are not a priority demographic anymore. Well who does Apple think will write software to run on their real cash cow iOS? Developers are the thin end of a large wedge. FWIW I switched to Linux on ThinkPad X220 on the day of the MBP announcement. I've added 16GB ram and a SSD. I can't think of any reason to go back.

acejam 10y ago
I don't consider a handful of outspoken developers who have their own blogs to be "en masse". Every developer that I know still uses a MacBook or MacBook Pro. The new MacBook Pro is a great product. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
- plexicle 10y ago
  Just to add my anecdotal counter-point. (I don't have a blog.) I know a handful of people who normally upgrade every refresh and are flat out refusing this time. A couple (that aren't locked in by being iOS devs) have picked up other laptops instead. I disagree with your assessment that it's a "great product." I bought a spec'ed out one myself that I eventually returned. Not claiming either one of us are the majority but I wanted to add my side and not state it as ultimate fact and certainly not present it argumentum ad populum.
- dustinmoris 10y ago
  Apple fanboy after reading a handful of negative blog posts about Windows: "Good bye Microsoft. You are losing all your customers to Apple now. Ballmer sucks. Windows 10 sucks. Everything sucks. Apple is going to rule the world." Apple fanboy after reading a new blog post on how developers with a huge followership give up their MBP, which are ranking in the top of HN every day since the announcement in Oct 2016: "These developers are only a minority. There's definitely no trend here whatsoever. 100%. Trust me. It's based on my opinion."
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Are you proposing that the first one is actually correct, or are you agreeing that the second one is?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- joatmon-snoo 10y ago
  > still uses a MacBook or MacBook Pro This is not synonymous with upgrading their MB/MBP.
  - TomVDB 10y ago
    This exactly. My biggest dilemma is not whether or not to upgrade my aging 2012 MacBook Pro Retina with a 2016 model. It's whether or not I should buy the 2015 version while it's still available in some stores.
- exergy 10y ago
  "If you don't like it, don't buy it" is just about the worst line of argument you could take. It is highly unproductive and instantly ends any hopes of a useful discussion. "If you don't like Trump, leave the country". "If you don't like the video, don't comment, just ignore it"...And then what? Let's all just shut down threads that crticise anything at all, because, of course, if I don't like it, I can just move on.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    It may be a knockout argument, but it is true. Apple doesn't care about mindshare on HN, Apple cares about number of units sold.
- johnny22 10y ago
  hyperbole? or do you really not know any developers who don't use a mac? I'm only asking because it is possible that is truly the case.
swah 10y ago
> I can't think of any reason to go back. IMO this just means you're somehow a "simple" user ("just" console tools, etc)
- adtac 10y ago
  Huh? How is using the console over the GUI being a simple user? In fact, I could make an argument for the opposite.
  - swah 10y ago
    I meant that people that complain about Linux commonly want Photoshop, support for games, cad tools like Altium, etc...
- freehunter 10y ago
  Okay, this has been getting more and more common. I've called it out in the past and people have shut me down, but I want to thank you for coming right out and saying it with those exact words. Thank you for proving my point. "You're not a professional user" has been implied way too damn often lately. It seems that the new MacBook Pro has brought out the worst in our community, where people now need to measure their self-worth based on the hardware specs of other people's work laptops. It started with people saying "The new MacBook Pro is not a professional laptop", with the hidden implication that anyone who uses one is not a professional user. If it's not a professional laptop and I use one, I can't be a professional. Simple as that. But now with you coming right out and saying "if you don't use the tools I do, you must be a simple user", you've exposed it for what it really is. It's a pissing contest. To be a real professional, you have to use tooling that requires an i7 with 32GB of RAM and software that only runs on my preferred platform. If you don't use my tools and my hardware, you're "simple". It's not just Apple fans, it's not just Linux fans, it's not just Windows fans. It seems pervasive. If you use macOS in 2017, you're not a professional. If you use Linux in 2017, you're simple. If you use -blank- in 2017 you're -blank-. Because my hardware, my software, my tooling is better. And actually in the Mac world, it's gotten to the point where if you aren't using a 2013 or 2012 MacBook, you're part out of the "out" crowd. The older the better. Whatever happened to the good old hacker mentality of "if it works, it works"? When the answer to "why" was "why not"? And since when did someone using "just" console tools mean they're a "simple" user?!
hacknat 10y ago
I'm with you that they should be slightly worried, and I've long disliked MacBooks in favor of commodity+Linux, but surely the market share of iOS will keep developers at the table. It sucks, but I don't blame manufacturers for pulling back from laptops, the money and market aren't what they used to be. The good news is that it looks like the laptop divisions of most companies are becoming more enamore with "developer" editions and ultra books as developers are increasingly a noteworthy share of the marketplace. Can Apple really be blamed for pulling back a bit from a retrenching market?
- coryfklein 10y ago
  > but surely the market share of iOS will keep developers at the table That market share is partially created by developers using the platform. It stands to reason that Apple's bad decisions will create a new "market share" elsewhere as developers abandon the platform.
  - jacobush 10y ago
    Ah, I had the impression a bunch of friends bought Macs when the first iOS SDK came out. If only a Mac Mini at first.
  - mcphage 10y ago
    > That market share is partially created by developers using the platform. And partially created (and probably more so) by having a customer base willing to spend money on apps. Developers will go where the money is.
    - bad_user 10y ago
      This is a myth IMO. Where there are users and the means for making payments, there will be enough buyers for apps, for as long as your supply meets their demand. Unfortunately for app developers, the gold rush for the App Store is long over and these days it is getting harder and harder to get a return on selling your apps. This is not surprising actually, given that most apps are shit. Seriously, in case you haven't noticed, besides a handful of apps that are actually useful and a handful of games that are somewhat fun, all other are shit. I still remember when VLC was banned from the iTunes App Store, supposedly due to some patents stuff, leaving in place dozens of click-baits shamelessly using VLC's name. I actually bought a video player app in the hope that I'll find a suitable replacement, but you guessed it, it was shit. So then I returned it, after searching on Google for how. As both an Android and iOS user spending money on both, in my case especially for games due to my son, you begin noticing that Android's free apps are better, Android having an actual open-source ecosystem. Of course, things aren't perfect and for iOS at least I found and bought a decent RSS reader, but then I ended up paying for Newsblur and using it on Android which also counts. The point I'm trying to make is that: (1) iOS will probably not make your app sell better if your app is shit and if your app is any good, it will sell well on Android too and you'd be a fool to not release it on both and (2) if people buy more apps on iOS, it doesn't necessarily reflect well on iOS.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
aphextron 10y ago
>A oft-used retort is developers are not a priority demographic anymore Apple would be foolish to believe this. A lot of the MBP's "sex appeal" is the fact that it is so widely used among developers and creatives. Similar to professional athletes all using one brand of tennis shoe. The effect is that the masses will see it as the top quality product and want to buy it. If everyone shows up at conferences next year with Thinkpads (although I wouldn't count on it) they might start noticing.
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  Where are the creative professionals loudly declaring that they're leaving Apple over the new MacBook Pro? The graphic designers I know are optimistic about the Touch Bar.
  - graeme 10y ago
    Are you on forums for creative professionals? A good friend is a videographer who uses everything apple. He's seriously concerned by the lack of ports. I run an online business, write and make videos. I'm also concerned by the lack of ports and by the lack of a consistent set of keys on the touchbar. Neither of us are thinking of switching, but we're in "wait and see". I bought a macbook pro for a project last year, and was planning to upgrade when the new model came out. Haven't - the new one doesn't seem compelling. And people have bought macs and iphones due to my influence. Apple is foolish to ignore the professional demographic.
  - exergy 10y ago
    In fairness, there is much for creative professionals to like about the new MBP, if youtube reviews are to be believed. On the other hand, Ballmer was perhaps cartoonish but not idiotic when he trampled around the stage yelling "Developers!". Software developers are hugely important, and should be to Apple. It's trite but worth repeating: no one wants to use an operating system. People want to use the software that runs on the operating system.
  - nickv 10y ago
    Really? Most of the graphic designers I know are, at best, not deeply offended by the touch bar. I can't say a single one I've talked to was excited about it. You know what all my graphic designer friends are losing their shit over? The new Microsoft Surface Studio. The excitement my visual artist and graphic artist friends have for the Studio and Dial should terrify Apple. But Apple seems to have forgotten who their influencers are.
ceejayoz 10y ago
> Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias Every day there is something not posted here, on Reddit, or Twitter by another developer not moving anywhere.
- criddell 10y ago
  It doesn't mean those that stay are entirely happy with things like Apple neglecting the Mac Pro. They should always have at least one machine that they can point to for people that need a truck rather than a sedan.
  - sbuk 10y ago
    "It doesn't mean those that stay are entirely happy with things like Apple neglecting the Mac Pro." And by the very same token, it doesn't mean they are! Can we keep the fallacies out of this please?
    - criddell 10y ago
      > And by the very same token, it doesn't mean they are! They are what? Happy Apple doesn't sell high end hardware? I don't get what you are trying to say.
      - sbuk 10y ago
        Aren't got autocorrected.
- apetresc 10y ago
  The comparison is with the absence of "switch" posts in previous years, not with the absence of "non-switch" posts. It can't be denied that a dissatisfied-with-Macs sentiment is growing where none existed before.
  - 10y ago
kayoone 10y ago
If you look at product forums in general you usually will see a lot more complaints than praise, because most people don't write about their positive experiences. I think here on HN these kind of posts get a lot of attention because it is somehow popular to hate on Apple right now, but i believe it's not a major part of the demographic. I just got my 13" MBP with Touchbar and actually love it. The overall experience is not that different anyway, but i actually really like the keyboard, despite trying it in a store and being not really convinced. I also love the display, compact size/weight and TouchId is pretty cool as well. The thing i find a bit annoying is the touch-ESC button and the Spotify stuff you already mentioned but it's not a major dealbreaker for me. Likewise i know two other devs who recently got one and they all seem really happy.
- geerlingguy 10y ago
  In general, it is the best laptop Apple has made yet (sans Touch Bar)—that's why I'm still willing to pay the money for a Function Key model. But I'm annoyed Apple is forcing users to get the Touch Bar model if they want Touch ID, four TB3 ports, slightly faster RAM, and slightly faster WiFi.
  - kayoone 10y ago
    Yeah, but Apple was never about choice and if the Touchbar was optional it would never find meaningful adoption. I still believe Touchbar can be very useful in the future.
matthewmacleod 10y ago
Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. I'm still entirely sceptical that this is happening. There's been a lot of noise for sure, but I have yet to know a developer directly who has done this, and I don't live in a bubble.
- robinreekers 10y ago
  I bought a xps 13 last week instead of the new MacBook. I was kinda worried if it would be any good but it really is beyond expectations. Great touchpad, pretty decent keyboard and a great screen. And for half the price. It makes me consider replacing more of my Apple hardware. I know, I'm just some guy, but I think more will consider or did what I did.
  - Spectre21 10y ago
    What make and model did you end up with?
    - robinreekers 10y ago
      I bought the most specced out one I could get here. 16gb ram, 512 ssd and i7 developer edition with the touch screen. Ordered it with ubuntu, because I hope that helps to have Dell decide to continue making the developer edition. Installed fedora though, which just works without the need for extra drivers. Got it in silver but applied a matte black skin from dbrand which makes it look pretty awesome.
eva1984 10y ago
They should. The backlash against the new MacBook Pro is unseen in history for Apple. It is totally not worthy of its current price. I am thinking about switching to Linux too. I am no iOS developer, and I find their OS upgrade also goes to the same dead end of prioritizing flashy look above usability. After all, why paying a premium only to be ignored and told by believers that my opinion doesn't matter, at all? Time to vote with foot.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  > The backlash against the new MacBook Pro is unseen in history for Apple. Guess you missed the iPhone's lack of Flash support and copy/paste?
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    As I recall the reaction to removing Flash support was divided at worst. I even recall it as mostly welcomed by developers.
  - barrowclift 10y ago
    Also the transition to OS X. http://lowendmac.com/2000/os-x-dooms-apple/ http://lowendmac.com/2000/os-x-dooms-apple/
  - eva1984 10y ago
    In fact I remembered it. But it is hardly a backlash. The users complained at the time, most of them simply didn't have a iPhone. It is more likely people saying, I won't buy a iPhone because of A/B/C. While the new MacBook gets complains from its EXISTING user base, who feel that Apple is taking features that are useful to them away and making the product worse. There is big difference between not giving what your user want and stripping what they are happy with.
    - ceejayoz 10y ago
      > The users complained at the time, most of them simply didn't have a iPhone. As is the case for the Touch Bar.
muyuu 10y ago
Tbf if I were a iOS developer by trade, I'd get a dedicate machine for that if necessary. But yeah, developer adoption usually predicts adoption by power users and the remainder of the market share. In a way, non-power users are switching to mobile progressively and using/upgrading/consuming on their PCs less and less.
optimuspaul 10y ago
> Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. You are reaching, I don't think there are all that many developers abandoning them. I don't know of a single one personally. I've heard of some vocal critics on the internet, but that's hardly representative of a movement.
- alexpersian 10y ago
  Correct. Anyone that thinks the dev community is abandoning Apple is delusional. Even with this new iteration, the MBP is still the most versatile solution.
- jcadam 10y ago
  The majority of the 20-something bearded hipsters sitting around the cafe coding away on their MBPs aren't using them because they're the best solution. They're using them because they're fashionable. When the trendsetters start using something else, the herd will follow.
  - sleepybrett 10y ago
    I'm using them because they offer me a unix with a nice ui and more premium software options (sorry guys, I'll take something like pixelmator over something like gimp EVERY DAMN TIME)
    - jcadam 10y ago
      And that's exactly why I switched from Linux to OS X many years ago (back then on a PowerMac G3). But the mac platform has taken on such a "consumer" focus (both in hardware and software), and in the meantime Linux has come such a long way, that switching back was a no-brainer.
  - sosborn 10y ago
    There are so many assumptions in this that I don't even know where to begin.
jcadam 10y ago
I dumped Apple years ago. Once it became obvious they were abandoning professional users and focusing on the consumer market, I was done (I'd been using Macs since OS X 10.1 - I switched from Linux for a nicer UNIX experience). Each successive generation of Macbook Pros seems to diverge more and more from what I want in a machine. Well, ok, I have an iPhone SE (nobody makes a decent small android phone) -- but I'm a regular 'consumer' as far as smartphones go :). My current laptop is a 14" Dell Latitude running Fedora. It's reasonably portable while still having a decent CPU (quad-core i5, rather than a low-power ultrabook processor). If you avoid the consumer-grade Dells and stick with the Latitudes and Precisions you'll get a solid, durable machine that's actually upgrade-able.
legohead 10y ago
I'll be moving back to MS after my next upgrade. I'm willing to try out the function bar, but the dongle thing is what gets me. That, combined with the new iPhone aux port, doesn't leave me with much confidence in Apple. Apple defined functionality combined with beauty. Now they are putting beauty before functionality.
robotjosh 10y ago
Apple products are immune from criticism. You can be a life long mac owner and buy all the latest releases. But if you have a problem with the 2016 macbook pro well then, "you're just a hater". OK mac community. I'm a hater, I bought max mac products for years, praised these devices for many years, biding my time, waiting for the perfect moment to shit on a new mac release!
rconti 10y ago
Moving BACK to Linux, I think you meant to say. And as for "not a priority demographic anymore"... Were they ever? I think it was more an accident of being a better Unix. And it still is, so I'm sticking with it. Can't wait to swap out my 2012 15" MBPr 256GB SSD / 8GB ram brick for a nice 13" with more storage and RAM, dongles be damned. They're a minor inconvenience for being able to use a good OS.

acejam 10y ago

I don't consider a handful of outspoken developers who have their own blogs to be "en masse". Every developer that I know still uses a MacBook or MacBook Pro. The new MacBook Pro is a great product. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

plexicle 10y ago
Just to add my anecdotal counter-point. (I don't have a blog.) I know a handful of people who normally upgrade every refresh and are flat out refusing this time. A couple (that aren't locked in by being iOS devs) have picked up other laptops instead. I disagree with your assessment that it's a "great product." I bought a spec'ed out one myself that I eventually returned. Not claiming either one of us are the majority but I wanted to add my side and not state it as ultimate fact and certainly not present it argumentum ad populum.
dustinmoris 10y ago
Apple fanboy after reading a handful of negative blog posts about Windows: "Good bye Microsoft. You are losing all your customers to Apple now. Ballmer sucks. Windows 10 sucks. Everything sucks. Apple is going to rule the world." Apple fanboy after reading a new blog post on how developers with a huge followership give up their MBP, which are ranking in the top of HN every day since the announcement in Oct 2016: "These developers are only a minority. There's definitely no trend here whatsoever. 100%. Trust me. It's based on my opinion."
- mikeash 10y ago
  Are you proposing that the first one is actually correct, or are you agreeing that the second one is?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
joatmon-snoo 10y ago
> still uses a MacBook or MacBook Pro This is not synonymous with upgrading their MB/MBP.
- TomVDB 10y ago
  This exactly. My biggest dilemma is not whether or not to upgrade my aging 2012 MacBook Pro Retina with a 2016 model. It's whether or not I should buy the 2015 version while it's still available in some stores.
exergy 10y ago
"If you don't like it, don't buy it" is just about the worst line of argument you could take. It is highly unproductive and instantly ends any hopes of a useful discussion. "If you don't like Trump, leave the country". "If you don't like the video, don't comment, just ignore it"...And then what? Let's all just shut down threads that crticise anything at all, because, of course, if I don't like it, I can just move on.
- majewsky 10y ago
  It may be a knockout argument, but it is true. Apple doesn't care about mindshare on HN, Apple cares about number of units sold.
johnny22 10y ago
hyperbole? or do you really not know any developers who don't use a mac? I'm only asking because it is possible that is truly the case.

swah 10y ago

> I can't think of any reason to go back. IMO this just means you're somehow a "simple" user ("just" console tools, etc)

adtac 10y ago
Huh? How is using the console over the GUI being a simple user? In fact, I could make an argument for the opposite.
- swah 10y ago
  I meant that people that complain about Linux commonly want Photoshop, support for games, cad tools like Altium, etc...
freehunter 10y ago
Okay, this has been getting more and more common. I've called it out in the past and people have shut me down, but I want to thank you for coming right out and saying it with those exact words. Thank you for proving my point. "You're not a professional user" has been implied way too damn often lately. It seems that the new MacBook Pro has brought out the worst in our community, where people now need to measure their self-worth based on the hardware specs of other people's work laptops. It started with people saying "The new MacBook Pro is not a professional laptop", with the hidden implication that anyone who uses one is not a professional user. If it's not a professional laptop and I use one, I can't be a professional. Simple as that. But now with you coming right out and saying "if you don't use the tools I do, you must be a simple user", you've exposed it for what it really is. It's a pissing contest. To be a real professional, you have to use tooling that requires an i7 with 32GB of RAM and software that only runs on my preferred platform. If you don't use my tools and my hardware, you're "simple". It's not just Apple fans, it's not just Linux fans, it's not just Windows fans. It seems pervasive. If you use macOS in 2017, you're not a professional. If you use Linux in 2017, you're simple. If you use -blank- in 2017 you're -blank-. Because my hardware, my software, my tooling is better. And actually in the Mac world, it's gotten to the point where if you aren't using a 2013 or 2012 MacBook, you're part out of the "out" crowd. The older the better. Whatever happened to the good old hacker mentality of "if it works, it works"? When the answer to "why" was "why not"? And since when did someone using "just" console tools mean they're a "simple" user?!

hacknat 10y ago

I'm with you that they should be slightly worried, and I've long disliked MacBooks in favor of commodity+Linux, but surely the market share of iOS will keep developers at the table. It sucks, but I don't blame manufacturers for pulling back from laptops, the money and market aren't what they used to be. The good news is that it looks like the laptop divisions of most companies are becoming more enamore with "developer" editions and ultra books as developers are increasingly a noteworthy share of the marketplace. Can Apple really be blamed for pulling back a bit from a retrenching market?

coryfklein 10y ago
> but surely the market share of iOS will keep developers at the table That market share is partially created by developers using the platform. It stands to reason that Apple's bad decisions will create a new "market share" elsewhere as developers abandon the platform.
- jacobush 10y ago
  Ah, I had the impression a bunch of friends bought Macs when the first iOS SDK came out. If only a Mac Mini at first.
- mcphage 10y ago
  > That market share is partially created by developers using the platform. And partially created (and probably more so) by having a customer base willing to spend money on apps. Developers will go where the money is.
  - bad_user 10y ago
    This is a myth IMO. Where there are users and the means for making payments, there will be enough buyers for apps, for as long as your supply meets their demand. Unfortunately for app developers, the gold rush for the App Store is long over and these days it is getting harder and harder to get a return on selling your apps. This is not surprising actually, given that most apps are shit. Seriously, in case you haven't noticed, besides a handful of apps that are actually useful and a handful of games that are somewhat fun, all other are shit. I still remember when VLC was banned from the iTunes App Store, supposedly due to some patents stuff, leaving in place dozens of click-baits shamelessly using VLC's name. I actually bought a video player app in the hope that I'll find a suitable replacement, but you guessed it, it was shit. So then I returned it, after searching on Google for how. As both an Android and iOS user spending money on both, in my case especially for games due to my son, you begin noticing that Android's free apps are better, Android having an actual open-source ecosystem. Of course, things aren't perfect and for iOS at least I found and bought a decent RSS reader, but then I ended up paying for Newsblur and using it on Android which also counts. The point I'm trying to make is that: (1) iOS will probably not make your app sell better if your app is shit and if your app is any good, it will sell well on Android too and you'd be a fool to not release it on both and (2) if people buy more apps on iOS, it doesn't necessarily reflect well on iOS.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

aphextron 10y ago

>A oft-used retort is developers are not a priority demographic anymore Apple would be foolish to believe this. A lot of the MBP's "sex appeal" is the fact that it is so widely used among developers and creatives. Similar to professional athletes all using one brand of tennis shoe. The effect is that the masses will see it as the top quality product and want to buy it. If everyone shows up at conferences next year with Thinkpads (although I wouldn't count on it) they might start noticing.

snowwrestler 10y ago
Where are the creative professionals loudly declaring that they're leaving Apple over the new MacBook Pro? The graphic designers I know are optimistic about the Touch Bar.
- graeme 10y ago
  Are you on forums for creative professionals? A good friend is a videographer who uses everything apple. He's seriously concerned by the lack of ports. I run an online business, write and make videos. I'm also concerned by the lack of ports and by the lack of a consistent set of keys on the touchbar. Neither of us are thinking of switching, but we're in "wait and see". I bought a macbook pro for a project last year, and was planning to upgrade when the new model came out. Haven't - the new one doesn't seem compelling. And people have bought macs and iphones due to my influence. Apple is foolish to ignore the professional demographic.
- exergy 10y ago
  In fairness, there is much for creative professionals to like about the new MBP, if youtube reviews are to be believed. On the other hand, Ballmer was perhaps cartoonish but not idiotic when he trampled around the stage yelling "Developers!". Software developers are hugely important, and should be to Apple. It's trite but worth repeating: no one wants to use an operating system. People want to use the software that runs on the operating system.
- nickv 10y ago
  Really? Most of the graphic designers I know are, at best, not deeply offended by the touch bar. I can't say a single one I've talked to was excited about it. You know what all my graphic designer friends are losing their shit over? The new Microsoft Surface Studio. The excitement my visual artist and graphic artist friends have for the Studio and Dial should terrify Apple. But Apple seems to have forgotten who their influencers are.

ceejayoz 10y ago

> Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias Every day there is something not posted here, on Reddit, or Twitter by another developer not moving anywhere.

criddell 10y ago
It doesn't mean those that stay are entirely happy with things like Apple neglecting the Mac Pro. They should always have at least one machine that they can point to for people that need a truck rather than a sedan.
- sbuk 10y ago
  "It doesn't mean those that stay are entirely happy with things like Apple neglecting the Mac Pro." And by the very same token, it doesn't mean they are! Can we keep the fallacies out of this please?
  - criddell 10y ago
    > And by the very same token, it doesn't mean they are! They are what? Happy Apple doesn't sell high end hardware? I don't get what you are trying to say.
    - sbuk 10y ago
      Aren't got autocorrected.
apetresc 10y ago
The comparison is with the absence of "switch" posts in previous years, not with the absence of "non-switch" posts. It can't be denied that a dissatisfied-with-Macs sentiment is growing where none existed before.
- 10y ago

kayoone 10y ago

If you look at product forums in general you usually will see a lot more complaints than praise, because most people don't write about their positive experiences. I think here on HN these kind of posts get a lot of attention because it is somehow popular to hate on Apple right now, but i believe it's not a major part of the demographic. I just got my 13" MBP with Touchbar and actually love it. The overall experience is not that different anyway, but i actually really like the keyboard, despite trying it in a store and being not really convinced. I also love the display, compact size/weight and TouchId is pretty cool as well. The thing i find a bit annoying is the touch-ESC button and the Spotify stuff you already mentioned but it's not a major dealbreaker for me. Likewise i know two other devs who recently got one and they all seem really happy.

geerlingguy 10y ago
In general, it is the best laptop Apple has made yet (sans Touch Bar)—that's why I'm still willing to pay the money for a Function Key model. But I'm annoyed Apple is forcing users to get the Touch Bar model if they want Touch ID, four TB3 ports, slightly faster RAM, and slightly faster WiFi.
- kayoone 10y ago
  Yeah, but Apple was never about choice and if the Touchbar was optional it would never find meaningful adoption. I still believe Touchbar can be very useful in the future.

matthewmacleod 10y ago

Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. I'm still entirely sceptical that this is happening. There's been a lot of noise for sure, but I have yet to know a developer directly who has done this, and I don't live in a bubble.

robinreekers 10y ago
I bought a xps 13 last week instead of the new MacBook. I was kinda worried if it would be any good but it really is beyond expectations. Great touchpad, pretty decent keyboard and a great screen. And for half the price. It makes me consider replacing more of my Apple hardware. I know, I'm just some guy, but I think more will consider or did what I did.
- Spectre21 10y ago
  What make and model did you end up with?
  - robinreekers 10y ago
    I bought the most specced out one I could get here. 16gb ram, 512 ssd and i7 developer edition with the touch screen. Ordered it with ubuntu, because I hope that helps to have Dell decide to continue making the developer edition. Installed fedora though, which just works without the need for extra drivers. Got it in silver but applied a matte black skin from dbrand which makes it look pretty awesome.

eva1984 10y ago

They should. The backlash against the new MacBook Pro is unseen in history for Apple. It is totally not worthy of its current price. I am thinking about switching to Linux too. I am no iOS developer, and I find their OS upgrade also goes to the same dead end of prioritizing flashy look above usability. After all, why paying a premium only to be ignored and told by believers that my opinion doesn't matter, at all? Time to vote with foot.

ceejayoz 10y ago
> The backlash against the new MacBook Pro is unseen in history for Apple. Guess you missed the iPhone's lack of Flash support and copy/paste?
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  As I recall the reaction to removing Flash support was divided at worst. I even recall it as mostly welcomed by developers.
- barrowclift 10y ago
  Also the transition to OS X. http://lowendmac.com/2000/os-x-dooms-apple/ http://lowendmac.com/2000/os-x-dooms-apple/
- eva1984 10y ago
  In fact I remembered it. But it is hardly a backlash. The users complained at the time, most of them simply didn't have a iPhone. It is more likely people saying, I won't buy a iPhone because of A/B/C. While the new MacBook gets complains from its EXISTING user base, who feel that Apple is taking features that are useful to them away and making the product worse. There is big difference between not giving what your user want and stripping what they are happy with.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    > The users complained at the time, most of them simply didn't have a iPhone. As is the case for the Touch Bar.

muyuu 10y ago

Tbf if I were a iOS developer by trade, I'd get a dedicate machine for that if necessary. But yeah, developer adoption usually predicts adoption by power users and the remainder of the market share. In a way, non-power users are switching to mobile progressively and using/upgrading/consuming on their PCs less and less.

optimuspaul 10y ago

> Apple should find it extremely disconcerting that developers are seemingly beginning to abandon them en masse. You are reaching, I don't think there are all that many developers abandoning them. I don't know of a single one personally. I've heard of some vocal critics on the internet, but that's hardly representative of a movement.

alexpersian 10y ago
Correct. Anyone that thinks the dev community is abandoning Apple is delusional. Even with this new iteration, the MBP is still the most versatile solution.
jcadam 10y ago
The majority of the 20-something bearded hipsters sitting around the cafe coding away on their MBPs aren't using them because they're the best solution. They're using them because they're fashionable. When the trendsetters start using something else, the herd will follow.
- sleepybrett 10y ago
  I'm using them because they offer me a unix with a nice ui and more premium software options (sorry guys, I'll take something like pixelmator over something like gimp EVERY DAMN TIME)
  - jcadam 10y ago
    And that's exactly why I switched from Linux to OS X many years ago (back then on a PowerMac G3). But the mac platform has taken on such a "consumer" focus (both in hardware and software), and in the meantime Linux has come such a long way, that switching back was a no-brainer.
- sosborn 10y ago
  There are so many assumptions in this that I don't even know where to begin.

jcadam 10y ago

I dumped Apple years ago. Once it became obvious they were abandoning professional users and focusing on the consumer market, I was done (I'd been using Macs since OS X 10.1 - I switched from Linux for a nicer UNIX experience). Each successive generation of Macbook Pros seems to diverge more and more from what I want in a machine. Well, ok, I have an iPhone SE (nobody makes a decent small android phone) -- but I'm a regular 'consumer' as far as smartphones go :). My current laptop is a 14" Dell Latitude running Fedora. It's reasonably portable while still having a decent CPU (quad-core i5, rather than a low-power ultrabook processor). If you avoid the consumer-grade Dells and stick with the Latitudes and Precisions you'll get a solid, durable machine that's actually upgrade-able.

legohead 10y ago

I'll be moving back to MS after my next upgrade. I'm willing to try out the function bar, but the dongle thing is what gets me. That, combined with the new iPhone aux port, doesn't leave me with much confidence in Apple. Apple defined functionality combined with beauty. Now they are putting beauty before functionality.

robotjosh 10y ago

Apple products are immune from criticism. You can be a life long mac owner and buy all the latest releases. But if you have a problem with the 2016 macbook pro well then, "you're just a hater". OK mac community. I'm a hater, I bought max mac products for years, praised these devices for many years, biding my time, waiting for the perfect moment to shit on a new mac release!

rconti 10y ago

Moving BACK to Linux, I think you meant to say. And as for "not a priority demographic anymore"... Were they ever? I think it was more an accident of being a better Unix. And it still is, so I'm sticking with it. Can't wait to swap out my 2012 15" MBPr 256GB SSD / 8GB ram brick for a nice 13" with more storage and RAM, dongles be damned. They're a minor inconvenience for being able to use a good OS.