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> Next, they hired Carmack, who is accused of copying thousands of documents from his computer at ZeniMax. This claim sounds pretty dubious. Has John Carmack s

> Next, they hired Carmack, who is accused of copying thousands of documents from his computer at ZeniMax. This claim sounds pretty dubious. Has John Carmack said anything about it?

sho_hn 10y ago
Does it? Carmack wouldn't be the first engineer to ignore legal details in pursuit of perceived nobler goals. Many mass-ignore sw patents every day. Guilt needs to be proven, but I don't find it hard to imagine. Side note: HN may not realize, but the public sympathy in this case may not be with Carmack and Oculus. ZeniMax, as parent of Bethesda, has a largely solid rep among the video game consumer audience as publisher of respectable games, and while the acquisition of id was initially seen as id selling out, their latest game under Bethesda (the first shipped without Carmack at the company) is widely regarded as a major return to form for a once-struggling game developer. Meanwhile Occulus burned through most of its initial goodwill with (perceived to be) disappointing pricing, exclusiviy shenanigans and losing a lot of ground to HTC's strong Vive offering. Carmack has tons of deserved cachet with us, but the public at large may be ready to hang him and Oculus. This will get ugly.
- charlieflowers 10y ago
  Which game are you talking about?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - sho_hn 10y ago
    Doom (2016).
    - Gigablah 10y ago
      Really? If you were to ask me and my friends "which company made Doom 2016 a success", we'd reply id Software, not ZeniMax. The "video game consumer audience" probably doesn't even know ZeniMax exists.
      - thenomad 10y ago
        The name's most closely associated, IMO, with Elder Scrolls Online, which was marketed under ZeniMax to some extent.
- ghayes 10y ago
  I would argue most software engineers perceive a huge rift between "I am comfortable violating some software patents" and "I am comfortable exfiltrating large swaths of my employers code base." I would hope so at least.
  - sho_hn 10y ago
    Most software engineers aren't Carmack, though. He used to co-own his technology, and graciously rooted for putting much of it under open licenses. I think Carmack is a pragmatist and certainly understands the business value of code, but also isn't a big fan of constraints. It's not like the my mind is made up, I don't know either way. Curious to see what the trial will bring.
    - KallDrexx 10y ago
      Carmack wasn't a freelancer working under Zenimax on an hourly basis. He was a full time employee working on the same industry in games, and as ex-CTO of id (and knowing what we know of Carmack's talents and what he's done before) he was most likely doing a lot more research and prototyping work in his capacity at Zenimax. Therefore it's a lot less obvious what he has ownership of vs what Zenimax has ownership of.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- krona 10y ago
  The article seems to be about copyright, not patents. Also, it's not ipso facto illegal to implement the invention or claims embodied within a patent. That's just not how it works.
- gcp 10y ago
  ZeniMax, as parent of Bethesda, has a largely solid rep among the video game consumer audience ...as an initiator of frivolous lawsuits. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/elder-scrolls-vs-minecraft-dev-scrolls-is-our-word/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/elder-scrolls-vs-minec...
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    So, as usual, the public support will depend on who can dig up more headline-worthy dirt on the other party.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      It's really only a handful of people comprising the jury that need to be swayed. facebook vs. Zenimax? I wonder which has more public acclaim and recognition to your point, not that I'm a particular fan of either...
      - valarauca1 10y ago
        >>It's really only a handful of people comprising the jury that need to be swayed. Company image can be ruined in lawsuits which can turn off consumers from purchasing your goods.
- tracker1 10y ago
  I don't think most developers, if any are mass-ignoring software patents that they are aware of... beyond this, software patents shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Anything done purely in software is mostly derivative and tasks that anyone skilled in what is being developed could come up with, without intentionally infringing. Software patents, and in fact most patents should go away.
- caf 10y ago
  Are "cachet", "rep", "sympathy" and "goodwill" likely to strongly influence the outcome of this case?
  - sho_hn 10y ago
    I have more faith in the courts than that. Where did I claim they would? It's a separate issue, hence "side note".
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- rasz_pl 10y ago
  >ZeniMax, ... a rep among the video game consumer audience as litigious bastards run by clueless lawyer/pron peddler (btw how curious any mention of friendfinder quickly vanish from his wiki page) The core of the case revolves around ZeniMax accusing Carmack of copying thousands of Doom 3 source files, you know, the ones Carmack personally authored and released as GPL before selling ID.
- cflewis 10y ago
  I find it hard to imagine. Personality issues aside, Carmack is one of the greatest programmers of our time, and arguably the greatest video game programmer ever. Why would he need to copy anything? All of his value is in his head. If you'd said he violated an employee contract by working for Oculus on his off-hours because he couldn't help himself, I'd believe it. But stealing documents? No.
  - nikofeyn 10y ago
    that's a bit of a hyperbole isn't it? the obvious counterexample is tim sweeney, who arguably has the more successful game engine and also video games. there are undoubtedly many game programmers and programmers in general that are completely unknown to the public and maybe even their peers that would be in the running for being "the best". carmack seems to enjoy his status, which feeds it even more. he is no doubt good, but his cult following may cloud how good he is a bit. also, who wants to rewrite code they've already written? there's plenty of incentive to want to take code you've already written. nobody likes solving the same problems twice.
Naritai 10y ago
All he needs to do to 'copy thousands of documents' is not wipe his hard drive on his way out. Any of us have thousands of 'documents' next to us at all times. If anything, the fact that Carmack's statements (in this article) focus not on denying anything, but rather focusing on how what he did was ok, it's likely that many (and at very least a core) of the accusations are true. This is referred to as an affirmative defense.
- taneq 10y ago
  The allegation about copied documents is only one line in TFA, with no context. It's highly likely that the quotes from Carmack are him replying to a different question than "did you steal files?"

> Next, they hired Carmack, who is accused of copying thousands of documents from his computer at ZeniMax. This claim sounds pretty dubious. Has John Carmack said anything about it?

sho_hn 10y ago

Does it? Carmack wouldn't be the first engineer to ignore legal details in pursuit of perceived nobler goals. Many mass-ignore sw patents every day. Guilt needs to be proven, but I don't find it hard to imagine. Side note: HN may not realize, but the public sympathy in this case may not be with Carmack and Oculus. ZeniMax, as parent of Bethesda, has a largely solid rep among the video game consumer audience as publisher of respectable games, and while the acquisition of id was initially seen as id selling out, their latest game under Bethesda (the first shipped without Carmack at the company) is widely regarded as a major return to form for a once-struggling game developer. Meanwhile Occulus burned through most of its initial goodwill with (perceived to be) disappointing pricing, exclusiviy shenanigans and losing a lot of ground to HTC's strong Vive offering. Carmack has tons of deserved cachet with us, but the public at large may be ready to hang him and Oculus. This will get ugly.

charlieflowers 10y ago
Which game are you talking about?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sho_hn 10y ago
  Doom (2016).
  - Gigablah 10y ago
    Really? If you were to ask me and my friends "which company made Doom 2016 a success", we'd reply id Software, not ZeniMax. The "video game consumer audience" probably doesn't even know ZeniMax exists.
    - thenomad 10y ago
      The name's most closely associated, IMO, with Elder Scrolls Online, which was marketed under ZeniMax to some extent.
ghayes 10y ago
I would argue most software engineers perceive a huge rift between "I am comfortable violating some software patents" and "I am comfortable exfiltrating large swaths of my employers code base." I would hope so at least.
- sho_hn 10y ago
  Most software engineers aren't Carmack, though. He used to co-own his technology, and graciously rooted for putting much of it under open licenses. I think Carmack is a pragmatist and certainly understands the business value of code, but also isn't a big fan of constraints. It's not like the my mind is made up, I don't know either way. Curious to see what the trial will bring.
  - KallDrexx 10y ago
    Carmack wasn't a freelancer working under Zenimax on an hourly basis. He was a full time employee working on the same industry in games, and as ex-CTO of id (and knowing what we know of Carmack's talents and what he's done before) he was most likely doing a lot more research and prototyping work in his capacity at Zenimax. Therefore it's a lot less obvious what he has ownership of vs what Zenimax has ownership of.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
krona 10y ago
The article seems to be about copyright, not patents. Also, it's not ipso facto illegal to implement the invention or claims embodied within a patent. That's just not how it works.
gcp 10y ago
ZeniMax, as parent of Bethesda, has a largely solid rep among the video game consumer audience ...as an initiator of frivolous lawsuits. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/elder-scrolls-vs-minecraft-dev-scrolls-is-our-word/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/elder-scrolls-vs-minec...
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  So, as usual, the public support will depend on who can dig up more headline-worthy dirt on the other party.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    It's really only a handful of people comprising the jury that need to be swayed. facebook vs. Zenimax? I wonder which has more public acclaim and recognition to your point, not that I'm a particular fan of either...
    - valarauca1 10y ago
      >>It's really only a handful of people comprising the jury that need to be swayed. Company image can be ruined in lawsuits which can turn off consumers from purchasing your goods.
tracker1 10y ago
I don't think most developers, if any are mass-ignoring software patents that they are aware of... beyond this, software patents shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Anything done purely in software is mostly derivative and tasks that anyone skilled in what is being developed could come up with, without intentionally infringing. Software patents, and in fact most patents should go away.
caf 10y ago
Are "cachet", "rep", "sympathy" and "goodwill" likely to strongly influence the outcome of this case?
- sho_hn 10y ago
  I have more faith in the courts than that. Where did I claim they would? It's a separate issue, hence "side note".
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rasz_pl 10y ago
>ZeniMax, ... a rep among the video game consumer audience as litigious bastards run by clueless lawyer/pron peddler (btw how curious any mention of friendfinder quickly vanish from his wiki page) The core of the case revolves around ZeniMax accusing Carmack of copying thousands of Doom 3 source files, you know, the ones Carmack personally authored and released as GPL before selling ID.
cflewis 10y ago
I find it hard to imagine. Personality issues aside, Carmack is one of the greatest programmers of our time, and arguably the greatest video game programmer ever. Why would he need to copy anything? All of his value is in his head. If you'd said he violated an employee contract by working for Oculus on his off-hours because he couldn't help himself, I'd believe it. But stealing documents? No.
- nikofeyn 10y ago
  that's a bit of a hyperbole isn't it? the obvious counterexample is tim sweeney, who arguably has the more successful game engine and also video games. there are undoubtedly many game programmers and programmers in general that are completely unknown to the public and maybe even their peers that would be in the running for being "the best". carmack seems to enjoy his status, which feeds it even more. he is no doubt good, but his cult following may cloud how good he is a bit. also, who wants to rewrite code they've already written? there's plenty of incentive to want to take code you've already written. nobody likes solving the same problems twice.

Naritai 10y ago

All he needs to do to 'copy thousands of documents' is not wipe his hard drive on his way out. Any of us have thousands of 'documents' next to us at all times. If anything, the fact that Carmack's statements (in this article) focus not on denying anything, but rather focusing on how what he did was ok, it's likely that many (and at very least a core) of the accusations are true. This is referred to as an affirmative defense.

taneq 10y ago
The allegation about copied documents is only one line in TFA, with no context. It's highly likely that the quotes from Carmack are him replying to a different question than "did you steal files?"