6 ms·

"if the salary isn't really high..." How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in s

by shas3 10y ago

"if the salary isn't really high..." How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. How would you adjust for experience? Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? The wages of a 30-year industry veteran would kick the promising young star out of the H1B pool, etc. etc. Setting a wage threshold without considering other factors is unfairly simplistic. Besides, companies pay wages based on industry and market averages. You can't suddenly expect them to peg wages to outbid competitors on H1B. Why would Procter and Gamble or Dow or Caterpillar pay university, Facebook, McKinsey, or hedge fund wages? Why should they?

Retric 10y ago
For 65,000 people and bidding based on salary, 300k sounds about right IMO. Think brain surgeons and the worlds best security experts not just DBA's.
- eeZah7Ux 10y ago
  Security experts are not paid like surgeons or developers. I wonder what you mean with "just" DBAs.
  - Retric 10y ago
    I know some security people in the 450+k/year range, and I hear 8 figures is possible. As to just DBA, like programmers there is a long tail salary range but, the majority make under 150k. PS: At various times you hear things like the Teaching shortage, or the Nursing shortage. But, that just supply and demand working as intended when a job does not pay very well few people are going to do it. However, when a job does pay well and you can't find people that's a separate problem.
tw04 10y ago
> Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? As previously stated, the intention of H1B is for ALREADY SKILLED workers in short supply. If they want to groom someone, they should be hiring a US citizen, not going to the H1B pool to find a low-cost foreign alternative.
- shas3 10y ago
  Eh? Nothing precludes grooming skilled workers! Also, obviously, new hires can be highly skilled. Someone already skilled may fit better in one company than another, etc. etc.
  - tw04 10y ago
    So what exactly is the mythical groomed position that you envision that both can't be filled by an American worker and requires an extremely skilled H1B visa worker?
  - fredophile 10y ago
    H1Bs are intended to address skilled worker shortages. They exist so companies can fill important roles now. If someone is being groomed than they lack the skills required for the position they're being groomed for. Companies should either hire an H1B with the skills already, find someone local they can train or use a different visa to hire someone they can train.
    - ousta 10y ago
      have you already seen a few job offers in tech? The range of skills needed is very often pretty daunting and having a set of skills and hence being a skilled worker does not mean you will be abble to do 100% of the job without having the grooming part. whats the point for someone to go to a job where he will learn nothing? please...
SilasX 10y ago
You shouldn't adjust for cost of living; remember, the causality flows the other way. SV and the coasts have a higher cost of living because they've found a more value-generating use of the labor that allows workers to bid up prices. [1] If the system favors them, that seems like it's working properly. Caterpillar shouldn't pay hedge fund wages; they should pay high-for-the-area wages to draw Americans out there rather than use up competitive slots reserved for the most economically valued immigrants. [1] Of course, there are land use restrictions etc.
ma2rten 10y ago
This is goes back to a more philosophical question. Is it fair that some get payed more than others even though they are equally skilled or maybe even contribute more to society? How do you even define being skilled? Politicians only want to allow high skilled immigration, since low skilled immigration takes away jobs or at least constituents seem to think so. For the purpose of a green card application you actually have to show that you tried to recruit a US person for the position, but that system is slow and easily gamed as well: You just make requirements up that only one person in the world can fulfill, the person you are trying to hire. If you define it based on salary you exclude people who are skilled but in locations, industries or professions that don't pay well, say barbers or teachers as an extreme example. Is that fair? I don't know. Also, the system kind of takes a simplistic view that there are X number of jobs and Y number of people who are qualified to do that job. It doesn't consider that some people are better at the job than other and that job requirements can be fluid.
- vostok 10y ago
  > If you define it based on salary you exclude people who are skilled but in locations, industries or professions that don't pay well, say barbers or teachers as an extreme example. Is that fair? I don't know. Shouldn't this be first class evidence that there is no shortage of barbers or teachers? If there were a shortage then you would pay them more.
  - ma2rten 10y ago
    The same could be said for anyone who is payed less than 100k, right?
    - vostok 10y ago
      Yes. There is no shortage of anyone who is paid under $100k.
vostok 10y ago
> How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The pay is the same in both when there is a true shortage of labor. This is why the auction system is great. If Company A wants to pay Engineer X $500k and Company B wants to pay Engineer Y $50k then clearly Company A has a greater need.
- elevenfist 10y ago
  > Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The pay is the same in both when there is a true shortage of labor. Policy cannot be determined by anecdotes. > Company A wants to pay Engineer X $500k and Company B wants to pay Engineer Y $50k then clearly Company A has a greater need. Hardly a forgone conclusion, there are numerous confounding factors. For example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company A. Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible: employee y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the foundation of a new industry. An auction system would give their visa to a fullstack developer hired by a startup flush with funding.
  - vostok 10y ago
    > For example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company A. If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important that what Company B is doing. > Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible: employee y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the foundation of a new industry. An auction system would give their visa to a fullstack developer hired by a startup flush with funding. That sounds like a problem with the way that we fund science and not a problem with immigration. Also, anecdotally, there is no shortage of scientists. I know plenty of people who had to go into tech or finance because they couldn't find science jobs.
thethimble 10y ago
Why shouldn't they? Salary is proportional to economic value. Shouldn't we be trying to maximize the economic value generated through the H1-B program?
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Not necessarily. We should also be trying to make sure that it isn't used as a cheap replacement for citizen labor.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. Good point. How about high-skilled scientists get paid double that! Besides, the government has to run itself, including the immigration authorities, by taxing these salaries. Best they be high.

by shas3 10y ago

Retric 10y ago

For 65,000 people and bidding based on salary, 300k sounds about right IMO. Think brain surgeons and the worlds best security experts not just DBA's.

eeZah7Ux 10y ago
Security experts are not paid like surgeons or developers. I wonder what you mean with "just" DBAs.
- Retric 10y ago
  I know some security people in the 450+k/year range, and I hear 8 figures is possible. As to just DBA, like programmers there is a long tail salary range but, the majority make under 150k. PS: At various times you hear things like the Teaching shortage, or the Nursing shortage. But, that just supply and demand working as intended when a job does not pay very well few people are going to do it. However, when a job does pay well and you can't find people that's a separate problem.

tw04 10y ago

> Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? As previously stated, the intention of H1B is for ALREADY SKILLED workers in short supply. If they want to groom someone, they should be hiring a US citizen, not going to the H1B pool to find a low-cost foreign alternative.

shas3 10y ago
Eh? Nothing precludes grooming skilled workers! Also, obviously, new hires can be highly skilled. Someone already skilled may fit better in one company than another, etc. etc.
- tw04 10y ago
  So what exactly is the mythical groomed position that you envision that both can't be filled by an American worker and requires an extremely skilled H1B visa worker?
- fredophile 10y ago
  H1Bs are intended to address skilled worker shortages. They exist so companies can fill important roles now. If someone is being groomed than they lack the skills required for the position they're being groomed for. Companies should either hire an H1B with the skills already, find someone local they can train or use a different visa to hire someone they can train.
  - ousta 10y ago
    have you already seen a few job offers in tech? The range of skills needed is very often pretty daunting and having a set of skills and hence being a skilled worker does not mean you will be abble to do 100% of the job without having the grooming part. whats the point for someone to go to a job where he will learn nothing? please...

SilasX 10y ago

You shouldn't adjust for cost of living; remember, the causality flows the other way. SV and the coasts have a higher cost of living because they've found a more value-generating use of the labor that allows workers to bid up prices. [1] If the system favors them, that seems like it's working properly. Caterpillar shouldn't pay hedge fund wages; they should pay high-for-the-area wages to draw Americans out there rather than use up competitive slots reserved for the most economically valued immigrants. [1] Of course, there are land use restrictions etc.

ma2rten 10y ago

This is goes back to a more philosophical question. Is it fair that some get payed more than others even though they are equally skilled or maybe even contribute more to society? How do you even define being skilled? Politicians only want to allow high skilled immigration, since low skilled immigration takes away jobs or at least constituents seem to think so. For the purpose of a green card application you actually have to show that you tried to recruit a US person for the position, but that system is slow and easily gamed as well: You just make requirements up that only one person in the world can fulfill, the person you are trying to hire. If you define it based on salary you exclude people who are skilled but in locations, industries or professions that don't pay well, say barbers or teachers as an extreme example. Is that fair? I don't know. Also, the system kind of takes a simplistic view that there are X number of jobs and Y number of people who are qualified to do that job. It doesn't consider that some people are better at the job than other and that job requirements can be fluid.

vostok 10y ago
> If you define it based on salary you exclude people who are skilled but in locations, industries or professions that don't pay well, say barbers or teachers as an extreme example. Is that fair? I don't know. Shouldn't this be first class evidence that there is no shortage of barbers or teachers? If there were a shortage then you would pay them more.
- ma2rten 10y ago
  The same could be said for anyone who is payed less than 100k, right?
  - vostok 10y ago
    Yes. There is no shortage of anyone who is paid under $100k.

vostok 10y ago

> How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The pay is the same in both when there is a true shortage of labor. This is why the auction system is great. If Company A wants to pay Engineer X $500k and Company B wants to pay Engineer Y $50k then clearly Company A has a greater need.

elevenfist 10y ago
> Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The pay is the same in both when there is a true shortage of labor. Policy cannot be determined by anecdotes. > Company A wants to pay Engineer X $500k and Company B wants to pay Engineer Y $50k then clearly Company A has a greater need. Hardly a forgone conclusion, there are numerous confounding factors. For example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company A. Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible: employee y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the foundation of a new industry. An auction system would give their visa to a fullstack developer hired by a startup flush with funding.
- vostok 10y ago
  > For example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company A. If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important that what Company B is doing. > Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible: employee y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the foundation of a new industry. An auction system would give their visa to a fullstack developer hired by a startup flush with funding. That sounds like a problem with the way that we fund science and not a problem with immigration. Also, anecdotally, there is no shortage of scientists. I know plenty of people who had to go into tech or finance because they couldn't find science jobs.

thethimble 10y ago

Why shouldn't they? Salary is proportional to economic value. Shouldn't we be trying to maximize the economic value generated through the H1-B program?

st3v3r 10y ago
Not necessarily. We should also be trying to make sure that it isn't used as a cheap replacement for citizen labor.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. Good point. How about high-skilled scientists get paid double that! Besides, the government has to run itself, including the immigration authorities, by taxing these salaries. Best they be high.