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Way to make me feel worse about eating them.
by overcast 10y ago
Way to make me feel worse about eating them.
- ch4s3 10y agoWell pigs are smarter than dogs, and many people eat them.
- overcast 10y agoI don't feel great about that either, but octopuses have shown repeatedly their problem solving abilities.
- ch4s3 10y agoPerhaps that would be an interesting area of study. I think the lack of dexterous limbs probably inhibits the pig's ability to solve certain problems they would otherwise be mentally capable of tackling.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- oneeyedpigeon 10y agoI've seen an experiment in which pigs controlled an object on a screen, using a 'joystick', by controlling it with their snout. It certainly looked as if they were demonstrating a level of intelligence.
- ch4s3 10y agoI read about that study as well, it's what I was thinking of when I made the previous comment! Cool stuff! Do you have a link by any chance?
- oneeyedpigeon 10y agoAll I know is that it was a TV programme in the UK; sorry, I know that's not very useful!
- maxxxxx 10y agoWe had two pigs together with our horse and they were really creative at figuring out how to open doors and get into the food containers.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jnbiche 10y agoYeah, but a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
- howlin 10y agoPigs have personality too. But most people would never know it given how livestock are treated.
- okreallywtf 10y agoAs someone who has been around beef-cattle and also had milk cows growing up, cows are much the same way. They have a lot of personality and are not altogether different than dogs or anything else. Cattle raised for beef have a lot less human interaction and therefore have less "personality". Our cows knew their names and were very affectionate but they also had been interacted with since birth.
- maxxxxx 10y agoMost farm animals are probably psychotic and can't develop a personality just because of the circumstances they are raised in. If you threw 20 humans into a small pen where they have to live from birth to death they would probably be crippled psychologically and not appear very smart too.
- enraged_camel 10y agoDogs have co-evolved with humans for tens of thousands of years, and demonstrate traits and behaviors that makes it much easier for humans to empathize and socialize with them. For example, you can tell when a dog is happy because their facial expressions resemble a human smile. Not so with livestock. Sure, you can figure it out after spending time with them, but it's inarguably not the same thing.
- prodmerc 10y agoNo, dogs don't smile. Some learn the baring of teeth as being peaceful instead of defensive, but most of them don't, or rather can't smile. You can find the same exact "smile" in goats, sheep and pigs, they're definitely not making that face because they're happy.
- fibbery 10y agoPersonally, I don't eat anything above a certain (arbitrarily defined) intelligence threshold. So octopus and pig are out. Chicken, however...
- AndrewOMartin 10y agoI've got bad news for you buddy. :) (2 January 2017) http://www.springer.com/gp/about-springer/media/research-news/think-chicken---think-intelligent--caring-and-complex--/11952522 http://www.springer.com/gp/about-springer/media/research-new...
- Johnythree 10y agoI dunno. Have been feeding the neighbour's chooks for the last few weeks. Amazing creatures, incredibly friendly and even affectionate. I really enjoy going to visit them. I come away with a huge grin on my face.
- Cybiote 10y agoYep, pigs are highly intelligent. They've been shown to be able to learn how to use mirrors to locate food, are possibly capable of theory of mind, deception and visual perspective taking. Some of these can be disputed as associative learning but we're also finding out that the same can also be said of aspects of higher human cognition. And from work in machine learning, we know how far even just associative learning and pattern matching can take you. This is a short survey article that goes into more detail on pig intelligence: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210009176 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210...
- codehero 10y agoPet pig owner here. Pigs are problem solvers. Pigs are optimizers. The following videos of my pig demonstrate this. Video 2: Pig is first learning the task. Video 3: Pig has slightly optimized the task. Video 1: Pig has mastered the task. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/37f48azh2bt4xk4/Wy3iHDMp1e?preview=CocoTechnique.3gp https://www.dropbox.com/sh/37f48azh2bt4xk4/Wy3iHDMp1e?previe...
- ch4s3 10y agoThat's pretty excellent. For those who don't watch the videos, they feature a feeding device that must be spun to release food. Video 2 features the pig figuring out that spinning the wheel releases food, and by the last video, the pig is spinning the wheel numerous times to release several food drops before eating.
- hamitron 10y agoLast time I was in Hawaii, I had the opportunity to interact with an octopus in the wild. I will never eat one again.
- saganus 10y agoWhat happened? Was it afraid of you? I've never seen an octopus in the wild so I'm guessing it must be an experience. Would you mind sharing a bit more of what happened?
- jgalloway___ 10y agoI had an experience in Hawaii while I was on a scuba tour. In retrospective I kind of wish it hadn't happened but I appreciate that I have experience to share: The PADI divemaster located one while we were scouting a reef and chased it out with knife then placed it on my hand. I disagree that the experience was forced upon the octopus now .. I respect them; they are very intelligent. Anyway -- in my hand it expressed itself with touch. Initially tightening and posing itself in a drawn-back manner it spread on my hand and decided I was safe to explore. Our eyes met and my body relaxed. The octopus began to relax. A tentacle wrapped around my wrist almost reassuringly. The octopus let me know I was not food. He / she seemed content to just hang out but I chose to let the encounter deescalate and put my hand near a rock then slowly unwound his / her tentacle. The octopus seemed to understand my intent (my fear?) and glided over to the nearby rock to watch me go.
- deeth_starr 10y agoSame here. I was on the Big Island snorkeling. I was chasing a fish and dove down to the bottom when all of a sudden an octopus uncloaked and inked me. Without thinking I just started bird dogging him. Eventually it started shaking in fear (my assumption) and couldn't cloak. I felt bad for stressing it so much and broke off the chase. It's pretty amazing to look into their eyes. There is definitely something going on there. It's pretty sad what we are doing to the oceans.
- mangodrunk 10y agoWell, why not stop eating them?
- overcast 10y agoThey taste ridiculously good. However I am conscious of it, and I rarely have it.
- catwell 10y agoAlso, they are part of the few edible maritime species whose populations are increasing (http://www.humanosphere.org/environment/2016/05/rapidly-changing-oceans-means-fewer-fish-more-octopus-and-squid/ http://www.humanosphere.org/environment/2016/05/rapidly-chan...).
- deeth_starr 10y agoI believe this is only a current indicator because of less predators. Ie over-fishing. We don't know, but most studies that look at what does well in acidic oceans come up with jelly fish. Lots of jelly fish. Yum, heavy metal infused jelly fish...
- overcast 10y agoInteresting!
- smeyer 10y agoThis is the route I took. I'm a meat-eater and eat plenty of it (including pork, which someone else mentioned in this thread), but I decided to stop eating octopodes. It feels a little funny compared to people who avoid meat in general or eat all of it, but at least for now it's the only thing I don't eat.
- oneeyedpigeon 10y agoI bet there are other mammals you 'don't' eat - at least, that you'd refuse to eat. Man is the obvious one, but what about other primates, elephants, giraffes, etc.? I bet there are more animals that you don't eat than you do, and maybe there are even more that you would not be prepared to eat than you would.
- virmundi 10y agoWhy worry? They'd eat you. Realize that all animal ethics are entirely manmade and foreign to the background of the Universe's amorality. Edit: Really down voting because you don't agree? The comment was on topic, provided a view, and contributed to the conversation in some way. If you want to down vote, please be responsible enough to say why.
- overcast 10y agoThat's the side effect of being self conscious beings, with the capacity of understanding things deeper than survival 101. If other animals had this capacity, you can't say it's just man made thing.
- virmundi 10y agoYou've made it a side-effect. As a conscious being I know that there is a circle of life. I know that animals eat each other. I know that without getting into franen-foods, the human body evolved to eat other animals too. You picked an ethic. Probably because it felt good. I too picked an ethic. Mine is Christian with a good deal of Epicurean infusion. Religiously I believe we can eat animals, but need to care for the whole world (that's man's job). So I eat them. I don't kill things for the fun of it. Presuming an agnostic world view for a moment, the same applies. You can do what you want. There are consequences. You've made one of them feeling bad at the thought of eating a complex animal. Why does that matter? I'm not saying you're totally wrong for thinking that. Just try to understand truly why. Is it because something got imported into your world view to make you think that it should matter. If so is that a valid importation?
- cicero 10y agoChristianity (at least Catholicism) has an animal ethic that is not man-made, but comes from divine revelation. Genesis says that man is given the responsibility to care for creation, and while since the time of the flood we have permission to eat animals, the general (at least Catholic) interpretation is that doesn't mean we can be cruel to animals. In other words, if we have a reasonable need to kill an animal for food, it may be done in as humane a way as is practical. Otherwise, we should care for them.
- enugu 10y agoApart from cognitive skills, an important factor is the capacity of suffering. So even dumb animals might be able to feel intense pain. In humans, while forms of suffering like loneliness, depression can be bad, pure physical pain can itself a terrible thing. For instance severe torture for 10 minutes can be worse than months of depression. Now even if cognitive aspects are diminished in animals, the physical senses are active and often much more sharp(birds eye sight, dogs hearing). So, what we can do is independent of whether we are eating animals or not, is to recognize this fact that animals can suffer, and ensure that factory farms which deal with billions of animals atleast stop some of the more terrible forms of animal cruelty (dunking birds in hot water while still alive).
- bduerst 10y agoCephalopods are the only invertebrates that are banned from certain types of research because of this.
- lostlogin 10y agoGuidelines or laws and where? My Googling shows Canada having laws for Cephalopods, the U.K. for octopodes (I read the above Greek guide) and the EU considering them. To my amusement the Nature article (2011) mentions researchers complaining at potential paperwork burden and that some research might not be allowed. Are the laws new?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- pacaro 10y agoIn her book "Animals make is human" - Temple Grandin makes the argument (among many others, this is not the main thesis of the book) that we can have a symbiotic relationship with animals, wherein we provide secure food supply, protection from predation and the associated stress, etc. and in return we eat the animal. Factory farming, by contrast has more in common with a parasitic relationship.
- 10y ago
- kirykl 10y agoBut when the octopus hunts its prey does it have the same feeling ?
- throwaway91281 10y agoThe females of the species eat the males after mating if they can, so ...
- pmyjavec 10y agoThtat's probably more of a self-sacrifice type thing so the mother get's all the nutrients she needs to raise her offspring, not an invite for humans to eat more Octopi.