4 ms·

This is really funny. 15 years ago there were so many engineers and PhD students and candidates who wanted to get a higher education or a work visa to the US, w

This is really funny. 15 years ago there were so many engineers and PhD students and candidates who wanted to get a higher education or a work visa to the US, with the mantra of getting the "best and brightest". Nowadays the more sober people that I know shy away from the opportunity, preferring European research institutions and Nordic or Germanic engineering companies, or just staying home in Latin America or Asia given that the wage gap has tightened considerably and the cost of living in desirable American locations has gone up astronomically. It's the sort of thing that panders to the short-term nationalistic tendencies, but the impact will be felt a decade or two from now. Building up and maintaining intellectual prestige takes much more effort than it does to destroy it. Not to mention that there's more eagerness to set up engineering shops outside of the US than ever before.

branchless 10y ago
And the thing that destroys the drive to work hard to learn is the part that you allude to in your second paragraph: rentier activity. > the cost of living in desirable American locations has gone up astronomically They financialised housing. It's killing the west. It's creating nothing, it's appropriating wealth. Sad to see that other thread on what people would do if they could afford it. So many cited their mortgage as the blocker. In the same thread some guy cited his 400k annual bonus for high frequency trading.
- Hondor 10y ago
  Without high prices, how would you keep people out of the most desirable cities? Birthrights? Lottery? Application essays? Immigration restrictions at the city level? Or not keep people out but let them become shanty towns? Rent is a way to select residents according to how much value they can produce by living there. Even though it's wasted money, it's also as very good selection filter.
  - merpnderp 10y ago
    How is it wasted money? The exact thing you're speaking of is the good being bought with that money. It is worth X amount of money to stay in a residence for a month. That is a good which is being sold to the highest bidder. And people buying it are freely trading their money for that good. If we were as a society to take those goods and just give them away, that'd work about as well as toilet paper nationalization in Venezuela.
    - branchless 10y ago
      I agree rent is not "wasted", however a large chunk of the cost of providing the service is the rent of fiat money from private banks to pay for the land. We should try to suppress the % of economic rent.
  - rak00n 10y ago
    Only if government did adjustments for living expenses for school teachers, police and firemen NIMBYs would get less sympathy.
Bahamut 10y ago
I have not seen this in general - there is for sure an effect on some not wanting to come to the US, but from what I see in developer circles and what I have seen in academia, the US is by far the most popular location to move to. The opportunities are still excellent if you can get through that crappy immigration filter. Truth be told, immigrating to the US has been tricky for decades, if not longer - historically it is a very popular country to immigrate to, but there are filters currently founded on xenophobia/nationalism/racism/etc. These speculated changes aren't really much different in that vein, except that it closes a loophole that is abused. There are more guaranteed ways to get into the US, such as the L-1 visa. There are also ways to get an H-1B visa without going through the lottery.
- masonic 10y ago
  there are filters currently founded on xenophobia/nationalism/racism/etc. Compare the immigration restrictions of your own country to those of the USA. Aren't they more restrictive than those of the USA? And if so, doesn't that mean your country is more "xenophobic/nationalistic/racist/etc." ?
  - themacguffinman 10y ago
    Yes, my country's immigration restrictions are worse than the US'. So what? I dislike it in my own country and I dislike it in the US. Did you honestly expect people to think "oh no, I can't criticize the US because that would mean I'd have to criticize my own country too!"
    - rak00n 10y ago
      There is a difference between living in your own country that's xenophobic and immigrating to a xenophobic country.
- Daishiman 10y ago
  A large developed country with 300 million people is going to be a target for relocation, but I've most certainly seen a very substantial change that does not benefit the US. There's more people doing startups in their home country. More SV companies running satellite offices outside of the US to court talent that is unwilling to move to the US. More countries that are seeing the value of a strong software industry acting accordingly. Not all of it has to be Valley-style startups funded by venture capital. There's a lot of traditional industries that don't need that funding model that are realizing that most talent doesn't actually live in California. By now I know of many cases of people who have moved from SF after being courted through visas who moved back home or to offices in the EU, and many PhD candidates who ended up going to France, Switzerland, Germany and Spain to complete their PhDs, where the academic environment lends itself to a better work-life balance and high quality of contributions. Mind you, this mostly applies to immigrants from Latin America, who have goals that may be different from Asians and Europeans. Still makes it a relevant observation.

branchless 10y ago

And the thing that destroys the drive to work hard to learn is the part that you allude to in your second paragraph: rentier activity. > the cost of living in desirable American locations has gone up astronomically They financialised housing. It's killing the west. It's creating nothing, it's appropriating wealth. Sad to see that other thread on what people would do if they could afford it. So many cited their mortgage as the blocker. In the same thread some guy cited his 400k annual bonus for high frequency trading.

Hondor 10y ago
Without high prices, how would you keep people out of the most desirable cities? Birthrights? Lottery? Application essays? Immigration restrictions at the city level? Or not keep people out but let them become shanty towns? Rent is a way to select residents according to how much value they can produce by living there. Even though it's wasted money, it's also as very good selection filter.
- merpnderp 10y ago
  How is it wasted money? The exact thing you're speaking of is the good being bought with that money. It is worth X amount of money to stay in a residence for a month. That is a good which is being sold to the highest bidder. And people buying it are freely trading their money for that good. If we were as a society to take those goods and just give them away, that'd work about as well as toilet paper nationalization in Venezuela.
  - branchless 10y ago
    I agree rent is not "wasted", however a large chunk of the cost of providing the service is the rent of fiat money from private banks to pay for the land. We should try to suppress the % of economic rent.
- rak00n 10y ago
  Only if government did adjustments for living expenses for school teachers, police and firemen NIMBYs would get less sympathy.

Bahamut 10y ago

I have not seen this in general - there is for sure an effect on some not wanting to come to the US, but from what I see in developer circles and what I have seen in academia, the US is by far the most popular location to move to. The opportunities are still excellent if you can get through that crappy immigration filter. Truth be told, immigrating to the US has been tricky for decades, if not longer - historically it is a very popular country to immigrate to, but there are filters currently founded on xenophobia/nationalism/racism/etc. These speculated changes aren't really much different in that vein, except that it closes a loophole that is abused. There are more guaranteed ways to get into the US, such as the L-1 visa. There are also ways to get an H-1B visa without going through the lottery.

masonic 10y ago
there are filters currently founded on xenophobia/nationalism/racism/etc. Compare the immigration restrictions of your own country to those of the USA. Aren't they more restrictive than those of the USA? And if so, doesn't that mean your country is more "xenophobic/nationalistic/racist/etc." ?
- themacguffinman 10y ago
  Yes, my country's immigration restrictions are worse than the US'. So what? I dislike it in my own country and I dislike it in the US. Did you honestly expect people to think "oh no, I can't criticize the US because that would mean I'd have to criticize my own country too!"
  - rak00n 10y ago
    There is a difference between living in your own country that's xenophobic and immigrating to a xenophobic country.
Daishiman 10y ago
A large developed country with 300 million people is going to be a target for relocation, but I've most certainly seen a very substantial change that does not benefit the US. There's more people doing startups in their home country. More SV companies running satellite offices outside of the US to court talent that is unwilling to move to the US. More countries that are seeing the value of a strong software industry acting accordingly. Not all of it has to be Valley-style startups funded by venture capital. There's a lot of traditional industries that don't need that funding model that are realizing that most talent doesn't actually live in California. By now I know of many cases of people who have moved from SF after being courted through visas who moved back home or to offices in the EU, and many PhD candidates who ended up going to France, Switzerland, Germany and Spain to complete their PhDs, where the academic environment lends itself to a better work-life balance and high quality of contributions. Mind you, this mostly applies to immigrants from Latin America, who have goals that may be different from Asians and Europeans. Still makes it a relevant observation.