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Schopenhauer is also famous for having an anti-natalist stance. “If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race c

Schopenhauer is also famous for having an anti-natalist stance. “If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?” It's brushed off in first few paragraphs, but for those who are not yet a parent: you don't have to be. You can have a fulfilling, arguably happier [1], life without children. In fact, a lot of people argue against having children these days [2,3,4]. I'm fairly lucky to have a supporting and progressive family who, mostly, supported my decision for not having children. But a quick gloss over /r/childfree indicates that there is a lot of stigmatism still going on. I think it's time to do away with that. [1] http://www.pnas.org/content/111/4/1328.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/111/4/1328.full.pdf [2] https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2013/sep/10/david-attenborough-human-evolution-stopped https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2013/sep/10/david-a... [3] http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/people-who-dont-have-children-benefit-our-environment-more-than-any-campaign-its-time-to-celebrate-a7178951.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/people-who-dont-have-chi... [4] https://www.wired.com/2015/04/biggest-threat-earth-many-kids/ https://www.wired.com/2015/04/biggest-threat-earth-many-kids...

imesh 10y ago
Child free groups are like mens rights groups, nobody is getting in your way, you can cry and act judged all you want but you're fine.
- anon1253 10y ago
  But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. You should not be judged by not having children. In fact the default "you should have children to be happy/successful/not-be-frowned upon" is arguably the wrong one.
  - MarkPNeyer 10y ago
    People will frown at you regardless of the choices you make in life. Maybe we should just stop doing that so much in general?
    - lgas 10y ago
      Or stop caring so much that someone frowned at us.
  - rootusrootus 10y ago
    Of course. But please be aware, now that I've crossed from one side to the other, parents are getting an increasing amount of flack from the child-free folks. More than once I've been told how irresponsible and selfish I am for having children. So it goes both ways. Like with many movements, it probably started out with pure intentions and a legitimate grievance, but then it became tribal like every other facet of human society.
  - toasterlovin 10y ago
    > In fact the default "you should have children to be happy/successful/not-be-frowned upon" is arguably the wrong one. As biological organisms, our sole purpose is to reproduce. Our minds are designed around a lifecycle that includes having children and grandchildren. Betting that forgoing these will make for a happier life seems like a terrible wager.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Well, there is stigma attached to not having children, especially in certain families. But yeah, r/childfree seems to be mostly about people complaining about how hard they have it by not having kids, how disgusting other people's kids are, etc. It's a big ol' echo chamber. They're welcome to it, but it's not exactly a support group so much as a shared bitching session. For one example, let's look at one of the top posts right now, featuring two siblings who go to their mom's house and jump down each others' throat; the child-free sibling didn't like booger-talk at the dinner table, so retaliated by rubbing the fact that the childful (is that a term?) sibling can't go on an upcoming cruise: https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/5mr7nw/rant_my_sister_is_getting_jealous_that_i_am/ https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/5mr7nw/rant_my_s... If someone doesn't want to have children, they shouldn't catch any additional shit for it, but they're not exactly some elevated saint either.
  - kiliantics 10y ago
    Yeah, the vibe I get from that sub is mainly one of people who want to have the freedom to spend all their money on themselves and not have to give a shit about others (oh, why do I get taxed so much and people with children get to have all my money for education etc.) I'm cool with people not having children but that sub/movement seems mainly full of selfish materialistic people.
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
      See, I'm okay with that, too - if you want to spend your life spending money on yourself, fuck it - it's your money. Just don't whine about how awful it is taking a first class flight from Paris to have Thanksgiving with your family in Virginia and having to put up with ten minutes of grandma inquiring if you've met anyone special yet.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  Having your children taken away from you by the state and giving the mother of your children unearned wealth under threat of force is 'fine'? I've heard enough "I pay exorbitant amounts of child support but can't see my kids" horror stories to ensure that I will never have children in a western country.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    That's not remotely related to what the comment you replied to was talking about. They're talking about groups of people that neither have nor want their own children.
    - detaro 10y ago
      child support/custody rights is a fairly large topic in the more sensible "mens rights" groups that the post replied to also dismissed. (If that's a reason to not have children is a different question, and probably does depend a lot on the people involved)
Gatsky 10y ago
I guess you are talking about having young children. That can be a rough experience, but it only lasts for a relatively short period. The kids grow up eventually. Deciding not to have kids seems like it focuses on the short term disadvantages, and ignores completely the significance of having children once the parents are over 50 or 60 years old.
awt 10y ago
"Schopenhauer settled permanently in Frankfurt in 1833, where he remained for the next twenty-seven years, living alone except for a succession of pet poodles named Atman and Butz." If you want to end up like Schopenhauer, by all means be an anti-natalist. Also ask yourself if you would prefer never to have been born, even given whatever hardships you may have had to have endured. Not everyone was or is as miserable as Schopenhauer seems to have been.
semi-extrinsic 10y ago
In response to your [1], studies looking also at other countries than the US, like this one [5], have found that the "parents are less happy than others" result is entirely explained by the lack of social policies in the US that most other first-world countries have. For the record, I'm not saying it's wrong of anyone to choose not to have children. As with all things in life, people are different. "Most people" want kids, but that's necessitated by the anthropic principle: if it were not so, the human race would be extinct. https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/ https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/
biofox 10y ago
I'd argue that there's a third option: adoption. There are children who have already been born, and are subject to the burden of existence. Instead of creating new humans with the potential to suffer, help support and nurture those who already exist.
- mistermann 10y ago
  People only want non-damaged goods kids, and I don't think there are many of those available for adoption are there?
  - biofox 10y ago
    Unfortunately, you're probably right. I was mainly trying to point out that it's not a binary choice.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    It likely depends on their age; people do give up babies for adoption.
- taneq 10y ago
  Whenever the pros and cons of parenthood are raised, someone always mentions adoption. Adoption or fostering is definitely an option for some, but I don't just want random kids, I want my own kids. My reasoning is that if I'm going to pour a large proportion of my energy into a small human for a couple of decades, I want to give that small human every chance to succeed. Assuming that all 'nurture' factors would remain equal, the only other thing I can give them is my and my partner's genes. If I believe that we both have higher genetic potential than a randomly selected human then it makes sense to ensure that our children have those genes.
  - biofox 10y ago
    I agree, it's not for all. I think the preference comes down to the weightings individuals assign to: the importance of propagating their values vs their genes; and the value of existing humans vs potential humans.
MichaelGG 10y ago
I'd be much more concerned for the future of the species when folks that can make the no children choice actually make it. It's not going to help with overpopulation. It's just going to shift the demographics to something unsustainable.
- sien 10y ago
  It's really interesting on that front to see what is happening in Japan: http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21713868-there-arent-many-and-cities-are-growing-desperate-desperately-seeking-young-people http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21713868-there-arent-many... Japan has developed world birth rates and very low immigration. Japan's population has decreased by 1M already. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/02/26/its-official-japans-population-is-drastically-shrinking/?utm_term=.f8e653d26fcd https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/02/26... Globally as poor countries get richer and emigrate less this is what is likely to happen in many places.
_audakel 10y ago
I think short term you are happier without kids, no question. However long term kids can[not] add significantly more meaning, purpose and joy to your life. What they do, in my experience, is expand the range of emotions you are capable of experiencing. That means they can make your life the worst hell, give you the worst emotional pain available (death of child, bad actions of child, financial, medical, etc). But the inverse is also true. That being said I did not want to be a father, I did everything I could to try and stop it ( including recommending an abortion) I was immature and loved my life the way it was, and was totally happy keeping things the same. The first year was really hard and a huge adjustment. As it is coming up on my daughter's birthday (coincidencly a day after mine) all I can say is that she is the love of my life and brings me more happiness than I every thought possible. She is the best antidepressant, cheerful, beautiful and everything I never knew I needed. I wouldn't trade all the pain and heartache she brought for anything. You can be happy with or without kids. But you have the possibility of much different type of happyness with kids
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- zeroer 10y ago
  > That means they can make your life the worst hell, give you the worst emotional pain available Sounds great.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    Higher highs and lower lows. It makes your life before it seem flat, for better and worse.
- bollockitis 10y ago
  Very well said. As the father of two young children, I can confidently say that becoming a parent has brought me some of the worst pains of my life, yet also some the highest, most incomparable joys. Until you have children, this contradiction is difficult, maybe impossible, to understand. My kids have taught me more about being human than I could have ever imagined, but raising them has been difficult, fraught with pain and anxiety every step of the way (though I want to point out that my experience is not representative of all parents, as my story includes challenges most will, thankfully, never have to endure). In a way, it's like being reborn. I have watched as everything I THOUGHT was "me" fall away -- friends, hobbies, interests, even my opinions and beliefs about myself and the world -- only to be replaced with a completely different set of priorities and concerns. Honestly, having kids has shown me just how shallow, naive, and self-absorbed I once was, and the person I have become is far more mature, compassionate, and open. The problem is that no one can know how having children will affect them and I empathize with those who choose not to have kids. If one chooses to avoid the lowest of lows, while understanding that this choice could close off an entire range of life experience, I would completely understand. In my low moments I sometimes pine for my days of naïveté, chasing after absurd goals motivated purely by self-aggrandizement, but then I take one look at my children and know that I would have it no other way. For better or worse, I never understood love or purpose until I had children, and my experience as a father is far more rewarding than anything other future I could have imagined for myself. Of course, it isn't this way for all parents, and the decision is highly personal so I fully support those who have chosen another path in life.
lisper 10y ago
My wife and I are childless by choice and have never for an instant doubted that this was the right decision for us.
toasterlovin 10y ago
I think not having children is incredibly selfish. Life is an incredible gift. It is, after all, the substrate upon which all of our hopes and dreams are built. And we were given this gift. Many people made many sacrifices so that we could be here, alive, enjoying life. To decide, then, to not share this gift with your own children, well... I can't conceive of anything more selfish.
- ciokan 10y ago
  I don't think you can be selfish by not sharing something...with someone who doesn't exist. Not everyone "enjoys life" the same way as you do. There's no selfishness in here, just decisions that I chose to respect. And why do you call it a gift? Given? By whom?
  - toasterlovin 10y ago
    There is a fork in the road. Along one fork, there are additional humans (your children!) who exist. Along the other fork, they do not exist. Deciding which fork Existence takes as it unfolds is entirely up to you. But, sure, believe there are no moral consequences to this decision if that makes you feel better.
    - ciokan 10y ago
      This is no "Schrödinger's cat" which is both alive and dead. There is no fork if one decides to not have children. Decision was made so your fork is a straight line. Let's not dive into parallel universes spawned each time we make a decision.
      - toasterlovin 10y ago
        Isn't the whole reason we punish people for murder based on the idea that if the murderer had chosen not to murder (in other words, if they had taken the other route at the fork in the road) then the victim would still be alive? Obviously, murdering an already alive person is not the same thing as not having children, but is not the reasoning the same? Am I missing something?
jaredhansen 10y ago
There's one thing that nobody ever told me before I became a father, so I'll post it here: I was (and remain) shocked by how much fun it is. Seriously. My wife and I were married for 8 years before we even decided to have kids, and didn't do so lightly. What convinced me was a fairly abstract idea that it was, like birth and death, something more or less fundamental to the experience of being a living, biological creature, and though I likely would be happy either way, it seemed like I should go for it given that this was my only chance. "Buy the ticket, take the ride." I saw a lot of data purporting to show how bad parenthood is for self-reported happiness, especially for dads. And I heard from my friends who had kids (when I could talk to them, which was rarely, since they basically dropped off the map once the kids came) how rough the sleep deprivation was, how they never had time to work out, see their friends (or, half the time, spouses), do fun things, etc. And I figured I was in for something that would basically suck in the near term but had a high chance of being, long-term "rewarding" in a vague, hard-to-define-but-nevertheless-really-important kind of way. This was completely wrong. Of course it sucks to never get enough sleep, of course it's a bummer to lose time for all the things we have always enjoyed in life etc ... but the sheer fun of it has outweighed that for me at every turn. Just hearing that kid's little voice makes me smile, and I've never had so many reasons to laugh as I have since he's been born. This isn't a pitch. I am pro-humans and pro-more-humans and I think the HN crowd is above the median so on average I'd be happy to have everyone here have a bunch of kids, thus raising the intelligence waterline and producing a better future etc. But I don't claim to have any idea whether it's right for you in particular, and wouldn't have any idea where to start in figuring that out. But on the scale of "things they don't tell you", the biggest surprise in my life was just how enjoyable the first few years of my son's life have been. YMMV but I figured this was worth posting since nobody told me, and I might have been happier going in if someone had.
- rootusrootus 10y ago
  I agree. Though I might not be quite so uniformly positive about it. My kids have brought me great quantities of annoyance, but they also bring me great joy. Something about the laugh, the cry, the learning, watching them turn into a sentient being right before my very eyes -- it flips a bunch of switches in the right way. I agree that it's definitely not for everyone. I don't judge. I waited until I was 35 to have kids, so I've been solidly on both sides of the divide. I didn't like being asked 'where are my grandkids' and I won't ever ask anyone else a similar kind of question. Do it, or not, all I recommend is that you do it on purpose because there are no give-backs; only do it when you think you can give it your best.

imesh 10y ago

Child free groups are like mens rights groups, nobody is getting in your way, you can cry and act judged all you want but you're fine.

anon1253 10y ago
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. You should not be judged by not having children. In fact the default "you should have children to be happy/successful/not-be-frowned upon" is arguably the wrong one.
- MarkPNeyer 10y ago
  People will frown at you regardless of the choices you make in life. Maybe we should just stop doing that so much in general?
  - lgas 10y ago
    Or stop caring so much that someone frowned at us.
- rootusrootus 10y ago
  Of course. But please be aware, now that I've crossed from one side to the other, parents are getting an increasing amount of flack from the child-free folks. More than once I've been told how irresponsible and selfish I am for having children. So it goes both ways. Like with many movements, it probably started out with pure intentions and a legitimate grievance, but then it became tribal like every other facet of human society.
- toasterlovin 10y ago
  > In fact the default "you should have children to be happy/successful/not-be-frowned upon" is arguably the wrong one. As biological organisms, our sole purpose is to reproduce. Our minds are designed around a lifecycle that includes having children and grandchildren. Betting that forgoing these will make for a happier life seems like a terrible wager.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
Well, there is stigma attached to not having children, especially in certain families. But yeah, r/childfree seems to be mostly about people complaining about how hard they have it by not having kids, how disgusting other people's kids are, etc. It's a big ol' echo chamber. They're welcome to it, but it's not exactly a support group so much as a shared bitching session. For one example, let's look at one of the top posts right now, featuring two siblings who go to their mom's house and jump down each others' throat; the child-free sibling didn't like booger-talk at the dinner table, so retaliated by rubbing the fact that the childful (is that a term?) sibling can't go on an upcoming cruise: https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/5mr7nw/rant_my_sister_is_getting_jealous_that_i_am/ https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/5mr7nw/rant_my_s... If someone doesn't want to have children, they shouldn't catch any additional shit for it, but they're not exactly some elevated saint either.
- kiliantics 10y ago
  Yeah, the vibe I get from that sub is mainly one of people who want to have the freedom to spend all their money on themselves and not have to give a shit about others (oh, why do I get taxed so much and people with children get to have all my money for education etc.) I'm cool with people not having children but that sub/movement seems mainly full of selfish materialistic people.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    See, I'm okay with that, too - if you want to spend your life spending money on yourself, fuck it - it's your money. Just don't whine about how awful it is taking a first class flight from Paris to have Thanksgiving with your family in Virginia and having to put up with ten minutes of grandma inquiring if you've met anyone special yet.
lacampbell 10y ago
Having your children taken away from you by the state and giving the mother of your children unearned wealth under threat of force is 'fine'? I've heard enough "I pay exorbitant amounts of child support but can't see my kids" horror stories to ensure that I will never have children in a western country.
- khedoros1 10y ago
  That's not remotely related to what the comment you replied to was talking about. They're talking about groups of people that neither have nor want their own children.
  - detaro 10y ago
    child support/custody rights is a fairly large topic in the more sensible "mens rights" groups that the post replied to also dismissed. (If that's a reason to not have children is a different question, and probably does depend a lot on the people involved)

Gatsky 10y ago

I guess you are talking about having young children. That can be a rough experience, but it only lasts for a relatively short period. The kids grow up eventually. Deciding not to have kids seems like it focuses on the short term disadvantages, and ignores completely the significance of having children once the parents are over 50 or 60 years old.

awt 10y ago

"Schopenhauer settled permanently in Frankfurt in 1833, where he remained for the next twenty-seven years, living alone except for a succession of pet poodles named Atman and Butz." If you want to end up like Schopenhauer, by all means be an anti-natalist. Also ask yourself if you would prefer never to have been born, even given whatever hardships you may have had to have endured. Not everyone was or is as miserable as Schopenhauer seems to have been.

semi-extrinsic 10y ago

In response to your [1], studies looking also at other countries than the US, like this one [5], have found that the "parents are less happy than others" result is entirely explained by the lack of social policies in the US that most other first-world countries have. For the record, I'm not saying it's wrong of anyone to choose not to have children. As with all things in life, people are different. "Most people" want kids, but that's necessitated by the anthropic principle: if it were not so, the human race would be extinct. https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/ https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/

biofox 10y ago

I'd argue that there's a third option: adoption. There are children who have already been born, and are subject to the burden of existence. Instead of creating new humans with the potential to suffer, help support and nurture those who already exist.

mistermann 10y ago
People only want non-damaged goods kids, and I don't think there are many of those available for adoption are there?
- biofox 10y ago
  Unfortunately, you're probably right. I was mainly trying to point out that it's not a binary choice.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  It likely depends on their age; people do give up babies for adoption.
taneq 10y ago
Whenever the pros and cons of parenthood are raised, someone always mentions adoption. Adoption or fostering is definitely an option for some, but I don't just want random kids, I want my own kids. My reasoning is that if I'm going to pour a large proportion of my energy into a small human for a couple of decades, I want to give that small human every chance to succeed. Assuming that all 'nurture' factors would remain equal, the only other thing I can give them is my and my partner's genes. If I believe that we both have higher genetic potential than a randomly selected human then it makes sense to ensure that our children have those genes.
- biofox 10y ago
  I agree, it's not for all. I think the preference comes down to the weightings individuals assign to: the importance of propagating their values vs their genes; and the value of existing humans vs potential humans.

MichaelGG 10y ago

I'd be much more concerned for the future of the species when folks that can make the no children choice actually make it. It's not going to help with overpopulation. It's just going to shift the demographics to something unsustainable.

sien 10y ago
It's really interesting on that front to see what is happening in Japan: http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21713868-there-arent-many-and-cities-are-growing-desperate-desperately-seeking-young-people http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21713868-there-arent-many... Japan has developed world birth rates and very low immigration. Japan's population has decreased by 1M already. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/02/26/its-official-japans-population-is-drastically-shrinking/?utm_term=.f8e653d26fcd https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/02/26... Globally as poor countries get richer and emigrate less this is what is likely to happen in many places.

_audakel 10y ago

I think short term you are happier without kids, no question. However long term kids can[not] add significantly more meaning, purpose and joy to your life. What they do, in my experience, is expand the range of emotions you are capable of experiencing. That means they can make your life the worst hell, give you the worst emotional pain available (death of child, bad actions of child, financial, medical, etc). But the inverse is also true. That being said I did not want to be a father, I did everything I could to try and stop it ( including recommending an abortion) I was immature and loved my life the way it was, and was totally happy keeping things the same. The first year was really hard and a huge adjustment. As it is coming up on my daughter's birthday (coincidencly a day after mine) all I can say is that she is the love of my life and brings me more happiness than I every thought possible. She is the best antidepressant, cheerful, beautiful and everything I never knew I needed. I wouldn't trade all the pain and heartache she brought for anything. You can be happy with or without kids. But you have the possibility of much different type of happyness with kids

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
zeroer 10y ago
> That means they can make your life the worst hell, give you the worst emotional pain available Sounds great.
- khedoros1 10y ago
  Higher highs and lower lows. It makes your life before it seem flat, for better and worse.
bollockitis 10y ago
Very well said. As the father of two young children, I can confidently say that becoming a parent has brought me some of the worst pains of my life, yet also some the highest, most incomparable joys. Until you have children, this contradiction is difficult, maybe impossible, to understand. My kids have taught me more about being human than I could have ever imagined, but raising them has been difficult, fraught with pain and anxiety every step of the way (though I want to point out that my experience is not representative of all parents, as my story includes challenges most will, thankfully, never have to endure). In a way, it's like being reborn. I have watched as everything I THOUGHT was "me" fall away -- friends, hobbies, interests, even my opinions and beliefs about myself and the world -- only to be replaced with a completely different set of priorities and concerns. Honestly, having kids has shown me just how shallow, naive, and self-absorbed I once was, and the person I have become is far more mature, compassionate, and open. The problem is that no one can know how having children will affect them and I empathize with those who choose not to have kids. If one chooses to avoid the lowest of lows, while understanding that this choice could close off an entire range of life experience, I would completely understand. In my low moments I sometimes pine for my days of naïveté, chasing after absurd goals motivated purely by self-aggrandizement, but then I take one look at my children and know that I would have it no other way. For better or worse, I never understood love or purpose until I had children, and my experience as a father is far more rewarding than anything other future I could have imagined for myself. Of course, it isn't this way for all parents, and the decision is highly personal so I fully support those who have chosen another path in life.

lisper 10y ago

My wife and I are childless by choice and have never for an instant doubted that this was the right decision for us.

toasterlovin 10y ago

I think not having children is incredibly selfish. Life is an incredible gift. It is, after all, the substrate upon which all of our hopes and dreams are built. And we were given this gift. Many people made many sacrifices so that we could be here, alive, enjoying life. To decide, then, to not share this gift with your own children, well... I can't conceive of anything more selfish.

ciokan 10y ago
I don't think you can be selfish by not sharing something...with someone who doesn't exist. Not everyone "enjoys life" the same way as you do. There's no selfishness in here, just decisions that I chose to respect. And why do you call it a gift? Given? By whom?
- toasterlovin 10y ago
  There is a fork in the road. Along one fork, there are additional humans (your children!) who exist. Along the other fork, they do not exist. Deciding which fork Existence takes as it unfolds is entirely up to you. But, sure, believe there are no moral consequences to this decision if that makes you feel better.
  - ciokan 10y ago
    This is no "Schrödinger's cat" which is both alive and dead. There is no fork if one decides to not have children. Decision was made so your fork is a straight line. Let's not dive into parallel universes spawned each time we make a decision.
    - toasterlovin 10y ago
      Isn't the whole reason we punish people for murder based on the idea that if the murderer had chosen not to murder (in other words, if they had taken the other route at the fork in the road) then the victim would still be alive? Obviously, murdering an already alive person is not the same thing as not having children, but is not the reasoning the same? Am I missing something?

jaredhansen 10y ago

There's one thing that nobody ever told me before I became a father, so I'll post it here: I was (and remain) shocked by how much fun it is. Seriously. My wife and I were married for 8 years before we even decided to have kids, and didn't do so lightly. What convinced me was a fairly abstract idea that it was, like birth and death, something more or less fundamental to the experience of being a living, biological creature, and though I likely would be happy either way, it seemed like I should go for it given that this was my only chance. "Buy the ticket, take the ride." I saw a lot of data purporting to show how bad parenthood is for self-reported happiness, especially for dads. And I heard from my friends who had kids (when I could talk to them, which was rarely, since they basically dropped off the map once the kids came) how rough the sleep deprivation was, how they never had time to work out, see their friends (or, half the time, spouses), do fun things, etc. And I figured I was in for something that would basically suck in the near term but had a high chance of being, long-term "rewarding" in a vague, hard-to-define-but-nevertheless-really-important kind of way. This was completely wrong. Of course it sucks to never get enough sleep, of course it's a bummer to lose time for all the things we have always enjoyed in life etc ... but the sheer fun of it has outweighed that for me at every turn. Just hearing that kid's little voice makes me smile, and I've never had so many reasons to laugh as I have since he's been born. This isn't a pitch. I am pro-humans and pro-more-humans and I think the HN crowd is above the median so on average I'd be happy to have everyone here have a bunch of kids, thus raising the intelligence waterline and producing a better future etc. But I don't claim to have any idea whether it's right for you in particular, and wouldn't have any idea where to start in figuring that out. But on the scale of "things they don't tell you", the biggest surprise in my life was just how enjoyable the first few years of my son's life have been. YMMV but I figured this was worth posting since nobody told me, and I might have been happier going in if someone had.

rootusrootus 10y ago
I agree. Though I might not be quite so uniformly positive about it. My kids have brought me great quantities of annoyance, but they also bring me great joy. Something about the laugh, the cry, the learning, watching them turn into a sentient being right before my very eyes -- it flips a bunch of switches in the right way. I agree that it's definitely not for everyone. I don't judge. I waited until I was 35 to have kids, so I've been solidly on both sides of the divide. I didn't like being asked 'where are my grandkids' and I won't ever ask anyone else a similar kind of question. Do it, or not, all I recommend is that you do it on purpose because there are no give-backs; only do it when you think you can give it your best.