7 ms·

Yep. Yesterday was the first time in many years when I decided to check out how much a good gaming PC would cost me today. The price for a i7 6700K 4.1GHz, 32

Yep. Yesterday was the first time in many years when I decided to check out how much a good gaming PC would cost me today. The price for a i7 6700K 4.1GHz, 32GB RAM, 500GB SSD and nVidia GTX 1070: €1515 EUR (case and CPU cooler included). Add a €360 27" Monitor and the total goes to € 1875. Let's round that up to €2000. A similarly powered iMac (i7, 32GB RAM, 500GB SSD and an inferior Radeon R9 M395X) costs exactly: 4.189,00 € More than double the price! Granted, the iMac monitor is much better, but the price difference gives you 2000 EUR to splash on monitors and still be up 189EUR ! Or maybe splash it on VR helmets and a new bike ? And that thing gives me all the games plus VR and the pretty powerful Visual Studio IDE for hacking.

ebbv 10y ago
Really? This tired old argument again? Nobody buys an iMac as a gaming machine. I have an iMac and a gaming PC. You don't need to spend even $2k for a capable gaming PC. Also you don't have to spend $4k for a 5K iMac. Mine was about $2k.
freehunter 10y ago
Ridiculous argument. Macs have never been the value proposition, especially when they get fully loaded. Any literally any point in the history of the Mac, you could say "but you can get a comparable PC cheaper!" and it would be true. Macs have always been expensive, everyone has always complained that they're expensive, and they will continue to be expensive. This isn't new.
- 0x0 10y ago
  Nah. In 2013, macs were slightly more expensive than a comparable PC spec-wise, but still a fairly good deal. In 2016, the prices appear to have almost doubled and is totally unreasonable, while the specs are... malnourished. They even took away the escape key and the magsafe port. :(
  - freehunter 10y ago
    According to their Amazon product page, the XPS 13 has a 2.5Ghz i5 and 8GB of RAM. It has a 256GB SSD and a 3000x1800 screen. It's selling for $1,350, original price $1,799. The 13" MacBook with touchbar has a 2.9Ghz i5 with 8GB of RAM. It has a 256GB SSD and a 2560x1600 screen. It's selling for $1,699, original price $1,799. I know people love to complain about the new MacBook and believe me, I have some complaints about it too, but it's hard to argue with the numbers. If the MacBook is overpriced, Dell is getting away with the same thing, while somehow being highly recommended in every thread on HN. MacBook: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LTHXAEU/ref=dp_ob_neva_mobile?th=1&psc=1#featureBulletsAndDetailBullets_secondary_view_div_1483809436874 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LTHXAEU/ref=dp_ob_neva_mob... Dell: https://www.amazon.com/Dell-XPS9360-3591SLV-Laptop-Generation-Silver/dp/B01LQTXED8 https://www.amazon.com/Dell-XPS9360-3591SLV-Laptop-Generatio...
    - chrischen 10y ago
      Because no one's actually buying the Dell ;). People complain about things they care about.
      - freehunter 10y ago
        Yeah, and in every thread about the XPS, there's someone talking about their horrible experience with drivers and support, all the while saying "but the new ones look nice!". Honestly I would love if everyone switched away from Mac. Apple (like Intel) is at their best when their back is against the wall. When they're running the show, they get lazy.
    - Chathamization 10y ago
      I noticed the same thing with phones. I've read a lot of comments that the iPhone was much more expensive than Android phones. But whenever I ask for Android recommendations, the very same people would recommend phones like the S7 that are just as expensive as iPhones.
      - 10y ago
- adamors 10y ago
  Exactly. This has been true of every Apple product. If you compare only the specs, Macs, iPhones, iPads etc. are more expensive. If you factor in resale value or the fact that they last twice as long as a comparable Acer/Samsung device then they are absolutely worth their price.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Yeah, it's been a historical constant that Apple desktops were very pricey compared to PC with similar specs.
- J0-nas 10y ago
  Your argument is also ridiculous. The biggest difference between a PC and an iMac is the form factor. An windows all-in-one pc with the mentioned specs is probably about as expensive as the iMac (if there even exists one). It would have been better to compare it to an Mac Pro, which probably would be even more expensive... As for the general price of apple products, Surface book, lenovo, dell xps (outside of USA) are just as expensive as Macbooks. But sure, you can always get a windows laptop with worse specs or quality.
  - qplex 10y ago
    So you can get a PC with Mac Pro specs for the price of an iMac?
- kfrz 10y ago
  This is my thought too. PC has always been interesting to people who care about performance, price, future proofing, free software, etc. Specifically glad the author is going to be well, on the side of the Holy Master Race but overall people who want to buy macs are, in my opinion, paying for the shiny brush and Apple not the guts. I run Debian on my thinkpad e5 series without any problems. Ubuntu 16,04 installed with 4k multi monitor support out of the box. Windows is dead, long live Tux
- PascLeRasc 10y ago
  I don't think so, when you compare Macs to Windows machines with similar build quality. I got my 2014 rMBP because it was $200 cheaper than a Surface Pro 3 with the same specs at the time.
dostick 10y ago
Well that iMac has 5K display. Try to find that for your PC and see how much it costs together.
- mrob 10y ago
  For a gaming PC, 5K isn't so useful, because it's so difficult to render 5K at an acceptable framerate and graphics detail.
  - adamors 10y ago
    It's just pointless to compare. A Mac isn't useful for gaming anyways, since only a handful of games are available and drivers aren't optimised anyway.
    - kfrz 10y ago
      I bet with a bit of deal scouring one could find a 5k panel that is comparable but not quite as good. The opportunity cost of using that monitor on any other computer rather than just the one mac? Priceless. Fuck Apple, they sell you on the brand not the product they just happen to have good products.
      - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
        I love my iMac not because if any brand cachet, but I program a lot and love crisp typography on the screen. It is quite simple, you don't have to buy one, no it isn't a gaming machine. No reason to fuck Apple about it.
        mrob 10y ago
        There are lots of programming fonts designed to be used without anti-aliasing. This is a much cheaper way to get crisp typography.
        deleted 10y ago
matt4077 10y ago
I just tried to find a screen that's comparable to the iMac (resolution 5210 x 2880 and wide gamut colour space), and those I did find actually were around $2000 (i. e. http://amzn.to/2iPC5SZ http://amzn.to/2iPC5SZ). I also believe the price difference is magnified by the options you chose – Apple does indeed charge too much for additions like RAM. The base model, with the same 5k screen, only costs $2000. All that's neither here nor there – if I'm spending 10h+/day with something, I'm not going to look too hard at the price. Just the difference in noise is worth a significant premium, not to mention macOS. Edited: macOS :)
- kfrz 10y ago
  Note the potential extensive value for someone who needs a display they can use with multiple inputs or wants to keep it for the future... There's something different about a standalone display panel. Besides all said and done a custom build PC + 2x 4k panels can be bought for the same price range so why wouldn't you? Because Apple socks the psychology of scale and experience at you so the price is a bit easier of a pill to swallow alongside any other hang backs you may have: closed ecosystem of software, oh and hardware, questionable design changes re: battery life and touch bar in latest MBP, their pattern of designed obsolescence, insert gripe here but that's plenty for me to laughably head to the nearest Dell or Lenovo product when it comes to a laptop and entirely self built when it comes to PC. Right now I have a thinkpad e560 with 1tb ssd, 16GB rip jaws ram, i76500u at 2.5ghz. Now I know this anecdote is not really the same as what is on the market now but I paid $1.2k, I have a blu-ray if I want it, extra ssd if I don't. Also card reader. And plenty of USB 2/3 and network and even a Fucking VGA out. It's just as fast as my last retina MBP, and I used the cash differece for 4k panel. Why people upgrade so often is beyond me. Maybe it's a capitalism thing. This human race is fucked.
snvzz 10y ago
> The price for a i7 6700K 4.1GHz, 32GB RAM, 500GB SSD and nVidia GTX 1070: €1515 EUR (case and CPU cooler included). That's not a gaming pc. That looks more like a gaming-capable Workstation. Absolutely overkill CPU (games are seldom cpu bound), and too much RAM (games don't care). I suggest a glance at Logical Increments [0], which is definitely biased towards gaming, to see what you can do at a given price point. Note that just because of the gsync fiasco and the cloud-connected drivers nonsense, I'd gravitate towards an AMD GPU if I had to buy now. [0] http://www.logicalincrements.com/ http://www.logicalincrements.com/
- autoreleasepool 10y ago
  Fallout 4, Skyrim, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft and many more popular games are heavily CPU bound. Also, considering this is hacker news I think we can assume the gp doesn't need "just" a gaming PC
- nemothekid 10y ago
  I think at 1080p gaming, CPU power is more important nowadays. Overwatch benefits greatly from the i7 6700k over the i5 6600k, going from 240-260fps to 300fps (the cap imposed by the engine, hitting this cap is useful for reducing input lag). As a result I've seen many gaming builds rocking the 6700k (and even 3000Mhz RAM!)
  - ebbv 10y ago
    This just isn't true. Upping the resolution doesn't make the game more CPU intensive by much. Upping the resolution pushes the GPU.
    - onli 10y ago
      In this context, going to 1080p means lowering the resolution, allowing to use more money for the processor exactly because it means pushing the gpu less. I don't agree that a normal gaming PC needs a i7-6700K (reducing input lag in one game is something for pro gamers playing it as a job), but the logic is sound.
    - 10y ago
pier25 10y ago
I have a number of PCs and Macs at home (even a Sierra hackintosh) and I just prefer working on macOS. I tried switching to Windows for work but ultimately I need iOS and macOS compilation and I also miss the macOS ecosystem too much (Alfred, Karabiner, BetterTouchTool, iTerm, etc). Also Windows is plagued by legacy software, which is not an absolute deal breaker but who prefers working with ugly outdated software? If you have big hardware requirements moving to Windows or Linux is a no brainer. Even when money is not an issue, with Apple you are stuck with decrepit AMD GPUs.

ebbv 10y ago

Really? This tired old argument again? Nobody buys an iMac as a gaming machine. I have an iMac and a gaming PC. You don't need to spend even $2k for a capable gaming PC. Also you don't have to spend $4k for a 5K iMac. Mine was about $2k.

freehunter 10y ago

Ridiculous argument. Macs have never been the value proposition, especially when they get fully loaded. Any literally any point in the history of the Mac, you could say "but you can get a comparable PC cheaper!" and it would be true. Macs have always been expensive, everyone has always complained that they're expensive, and they will continue to be expensive. This isn't new.

0x0 10y ago
Nah. In 2013, macs were slightly more expensive than a comparable PC spec-wise, but still a fairly good deal. In 2016, the prices appear to have almost doubled and is totally unreasonable, while the specs are... malnourished. They even took away the escape key and the magsafe port. :(
- freehunter 10y ago
  According to their Amazon product page, the XPS 13 has a 2.5Ghz i5 and 8GB of RAM. It has a 256GB SSD and a 3000x1800 screen. It's selling for $1,350, original price $1,799. The 13" MacBook with touchbar has a 2.9Ghz i5 with 8GB of RAM. It has a 256GB SSD and a 2560x1600 screen. It's selling for $1,699, original price $1,799. I know people love to complain about the new MacBook and believe me, I have some complaints about it too, but it's hard to argue with the numbers. If the MacBook is overpriced, Dell is getting away with the same thing, while somehow being highly recommended in every thread on HN. MacBook: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LTHXAEU/ref=dp_ob_neva_mobile?th=1&psc=1#featureBulletsAndDetailBullets_secondary_view_div_1483809436874 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LTHXAEU/ref=dp_ob_neva_mob... Dell: https://www.amazon.com/Dell-XPS9360-3591SLV-Laptop-Generation-Silver/dp/B01LQTXED8 https://www.amazon.com/Dell-XPS9360-3591SLV-Laptop-Generatio...
  - chrischen 10y ago
    Because no one's actually buying the Dell ;). People complain about things they care about.
    - freehunter 10y ago
      Yeah, and in every thread about the XPS, there's someone talking about their horrible experience with drivers and support, all the while saying "but the new ones look nice!". Honestly I would love if everyone switched away from Mac. Apple (like Intel) is at their best when their back is against the wall. When they're running the show, they get lazy.
  - Chathamization 10y ago
    I noticed the same thing with phones. I've read a lot of comments that the iPhone was much more expensive than Android phones. But whenever I ask for Android recommendations, the very same people would recommend phones like the S7 that are just as expensive as iPhones.
    - 10y ago
adamors 10y ago
Exactly. This has been true of every Apple product. If you compare only the specs, Macs, iPhones, iPads etc. are more expensive. If you factor in resale value or the fact that they last twice as long as a comparable Acer/Samsung device then they are absolutely worth their price.
agumonkey 10y ago
Yeah, it's been a historical constant that Apple desktops were very pricey compared to PC with similar specs.
J0-nas 10y ago
Your argument is also ridiculous. The biggest difference between a PC and an iMac is the form factor. An windows all-in-one pc with the mentioned specs is probably about as expensive as the iMac (if there even exists one). It would have been better to compare it to an Mac Pro, which probably would be even more expensive... As for the general price of apple products, Surface book, lenovo, dell xps (outside of USA) are just as expensive as Macbooks. But sure, you can always get a windows laptop with worse specs or quality.
- qplex 10y ago
  So you can get a PC with Mac Pro specs for the price of an iMac?
kfrz 10y ago
This is my thought too. PC has always been interesting to people who care about performance, price, future proofing, free software, etc. Specifically glad the author is going to be well, on the side of the Holy Master Race but overall people who want to buy macs are, in my opinion, paying for the shiny brush and Apple not the guts. I run Debian on my thinkpad e5 series without any problems. Ubuntu 16,04 installed with 4k multi monitor support out of the box. Windows is dead, long live Tux
PascLeRasc 10y ago
I don't think so, when you compare Macs to Windows machines with similar build quality. I got my 2014 rMBP because it was $200 cheaper than a Surface Pro 3 with the same specs at the time.

dostick 10y ago

Well that iMac has 5K display. Try to find that for your PC and see how much it costs together.

mrob 10y ago
For a gaming PC, 5K isn't so useful, because it's so difficult to render 5K at an acceptable framerate and graphics detail.
- adamors 10y ago
  It's just pointless to compare. A Mac isn't useful for gaming anyways, since only a handful of games are available and drivers aren't optimised anyway.
  - kfrz 10y ago
    I bet with a bit of deal scouring one could find a 5k panel that is comparable but not quite as good. The opportunity cost of using that monitor on any other computer rather than just the one mac? Priceless. Fuck Apple, they sell you on the brand not the product they just happen to have good products.
    - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
      I love my iMac not because if any brand cachet, but I program a lot and love crisp typography on the screen. It is quite simple, you don't have to buy one, no it isn't a gaming machine. No reason to fuck Apple about it.
      - mrob 10y ago
        There are lots of programming fonts designed to be used without anti-aliasing. This is a much cheaper way to get crisp typography.
        deleted 10y ago

matt4077 10y ago

I just tried to find a screen that's comparable to the iMac (resolution 5210 x 2880 and wide gamut colour space), and those I did find actually were around $2000 (i. e. http://amzn.to/2iPC5SZ http://amzn.to/2iPC5SZ). I also believe the price difference is magnified by the options you chose – Apple does indeed charge too much for additions like RAM. The base model, with the same 5k screen, only costs $2000. All that's neither here nor there – if I'm spending 10h+/day with something, I'm not going to look too hard at the price. Just the difference in noise is worth a significant premium, not to mention macOS. Edited: macOS :)

kfrz 10y ago
Note the potential extensive value for someone who needs a display they can use with multiple inputs or wants to keep it for the future... There's something different about a standalone display panel. Besides all said and done a custom build PC + 2x 4k panels can be bought for the same price range so why wouldn't you? Because Apple socks the psychology of scale and experience at you so the price is a bit easier of a pill to swallow alongside any other hang backs you may have: closed ecosystem of software, oh and hardware, questionable design changes re: battery life and touch bar in latest MBP, their pattern of designed obsolescence, insert gripe here but that's plenty for me to laughably head to the nearest Dell or Lenovo product when it comes to a laptop and entirely self built when it comes to PC. Right now I have a thinkpad e560 with 1tb ssd, 16GB rip jaws ram, i76500u at 2.5ghz. Now I know this anecdote is not really the same as what is on the market now but I paid $1.2k, I have a blu-ray if I want it, extra ssd if I don't. Also card reader. And plenty of USB 2/3 and network and even a Fucking VGA out. It's just as fast as my last retina MBP, and I used the cash differece for 4k panel. Why people upgrade so often is beyond me. Maybe it's a capitalism thing. This human race is fucked.

snvzz 10y ago

> The price for a i7 6700K 4.1GHz, 32GB RAM, 500GB SSD and nVidia GTX 1070: €1515 EUR (case and CPU cooler included). That's not a gaming pc. That looks more like a gaming-capable Workstation. Absolutely overkill CPU (games are seldom cpu bound), and too much RAM (games don't care). I suggest a glance at Logical Increments [0], which is definitely biased towards gaming, to see what you can do at a given price point. Note that just because of the gsync fiasco and the cloud-connected drivers nonsense, I'd gravitate towards an AMD GPU if I had to buy now. [0] http://www.logicalincrements.com/ http://www.logicalincrements.com/

autoreleasepool 10y ago
Fallout 4, Skyrim, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft and many more popular games are heavily CPU bound. Also, considering this is hacker news I think we can assume the gp doesn't need "just" a gaming PC
nemothekid 10y ago
I think at 1080p gaming, CPU power is more important nowadays. Overwatch benefits greatly from the i7 6700k over the i5 6600k, going from 240-260fps to 300fps (the cap imposed by the engine, hitting this cap is useful for reducing input lag). As a result I've seen many gaming builds rocking the 6700k (and even 3000Mhz RAM!)
- ebbv 10y ago
  This just isn't true. Upping the resolution doesn't make the game more CPU intensive by much. Upping the resolution pushes the GPU.
  - onli 10y ago
    In this context, going to 1080p means lowering the resolution, allowing to use more money for the processor exactly because it means pushing the gpu less. I don't agree that a normal gaming PC needs a i7-6700K (reducing input lag in one game is something for pro gamers playing it as a job), but the logic is sound.
  - 10y ago

pier25 10y ago

I have a number of PCs and Macs at home (even a Sierra hackintosh) and I just prefer working on macOS. I tried switching to Windows for work but ultimately I need iOS and macOS compilation and I also miss the macOS ecosystem too much (Alfred, Karabiner, BetterTouchTool, iTerm, etc). Also Windows is plagued by legacy software, which is not an absolute deal breaker but who prefers working with ugly outdated software? If you have big hardware requirements moving to Windows or Linux is a no brainer. Even when money is not an issue, with Apple you are stuck with decrepit AMD GPUs.