9 ms·

As long as you still have a working memory, you can learn anything at any age, I don't go along with this 'old-dog-can't-learn-new-tricks' thinking. Though obvi

by hd4 10y ago

As long as you still have a working memory, you can learn anything at any age, I don't go along with this 'old-dog-can't-learn-new-tricks' thinking. Though obviously when you're younger it's markedly easier to pick up a new skill.

johansch 10y ago
It does take longer for many people to learn new things when they are 50-60 though. I do think we have to be realistic about the issue that many people who learned and performed complex intellectual skills in their 20s/30s no longer perform this kind of ability to pivot in their 50s/60s; to learn a new craft that depends on learning a lot of new information/skills. Of course this doesn't mean that all people in their 50s/60s are like this. Like this post illustrates.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  Speaking as a 43-year old, while I do have some health issues that I didn't have in my 20's, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, I find learning new things as easy as it's ever been. And I honestly don't think I am unusual in that regard. I have a much wider framework of accumulated knowledge than I did 20 years ago, and leveraging that, I can see how wider parts of systems interrelate with a clarity that I never came close to touching in my youth. Perhaps this too will fade in another 20 years, but so far I'm actually enjoying having a middle-aged mind. I can accomplish so much more than I could before.
  - BatFastard 10y ago
    As a person in the 50-60 year range, I can say that learning new things is a mixed bag for me. When I was young I was like Velcro, throw information at me and it stuck. Now only the important information stays with me. I wish I could have learned that in my twenties. I would not have a head full of useless information... One advantage of being older is I tend to have a more seasoned perspective of what's important and whats not important in the long run.
    - pc86 10y ago
      Whose definition of important? :)
      - BatFastard 10y ago
        Everyone has their own definition of important. I would like to think that after writing software for 30 years I have a decent knowledge of what my customers value. So for me, reliability, scalability, and ease of use are more important than whether a language supports tail recursion and dynamic typing.
        Baeocystin 10y ago
        I certainly agree with you there. Cutting the Gordian Knot of overly-complex software salad, and deploying only what my customer needs, while keeping it simple and robust, is how I pay my bills.
  - pier25 10y ago
    I'm 37 and I find that I'm smarter and wiser now than I was in my 20s which makes learning much easier even if my brain is almost double the age.
    - johansch 10y ago
      Please report back in 20 years from now. :)
      - pier25 10y ago
        RemindMe! Twenty Years
    - jharger 10y ago
      I'm about the same age and feel the same way. In my 20's I would actually avoid learning something because "I know that stuff already" (Spoiler: I didn't) Now I'm thirsty for new knowledge, and much more willing to admit when I don't know something.
    - Brockenstein 10y ago
      Well 37 isn't really that old. The difference between you and a 20 year old might be measurable, but negligible, when it comes to pure learning. IE you're both learning a task, subject, skill neither of you has knowledge or experience about. Clearly experience and knowledge has great value, and coupled with any normal sort of learning ability is a solid combination that is superior to increased learning alone. After all small children can learn amazingly fast compared to adults. But without knowledge and experience to see how to use what they learn or how to combine it to get new ideas they're at a disadvantage. I mean as a software developer at 35 I know a lot more than I did at 20. I was able to learn pretty quick back then, starting from scratch. I can learn pretty quick now. But with the advantage of knowledge and experience, I'm really only learning a couple of new things at a time to add to an already immense store of knowledge, so yeah it's easy. One new thing and I can see right where it fits into my existing knowledge. It's kind of a different ballgame now compared to when I was 20 when I was still getting a handle on the basics.
  - epalmer 10y ago
    Baeocystin - I fit that bill. I am 63. I can learn still but my ability grasp really complex random info has fallen off. My ability to learn info that I am passionate about not so much. I have learned what I can learn and how to learn. In college I could retain a lot for a little time period. Today my short term memory for syntax is not so good. In the book dyslexic advantage[1] they state that dyslexic's short term memory is not as good as the general population but our conceptual memory / ability to visualize is heightened. I am dyslexic and find this to be true. So I learn concepts and thank google every day for syntax. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Dyslexic-Advantage-Unlocking-Hidden-Potential/dp/0452297923/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483634103&sr=8-1&keywords=dyslexic+advantage https://www.amazon.com/Dyslexic-Advantage-Unlocking-Hidden-P... Also Baeocystin I like your HN handle. Edit: Typo Added link to dyslexic advantage
    - Baeocystin 10y ago
      Cheers, my fun guy friend! :D I think the 'learning how to learn' skill is possibly the most important one a person can possess, but by its very nature, it isn't something that comes without long practice. I know I can think of how I approached study in my late teens/early 20's with a shiver at my poor choices. I do IT work for small business owners. One of the things that I've noticed over the years is that the number of successful small businesses that are run by dyslexics is much higher than you would expect from the %/population numbers. And it is clear to me that it is their ability to conceptualize what the business needs, visualize how to move forward, and (perhaps most importantly) comfort in delegating tasks that plays a large role in their success. Which works well for me, too. I may not be dyslexic, but I quite enjoy their work style.
      - epalmer 10y ago
        Yes. Turns out I founded, ran and sold two small businesses. I've seen alot of dyslexics in small businesses. Edit: typo
  - Brockenstein 10y ago
    I'm not saying you're wrong and 43 is still fairly young (I'm only 35) so it's possible even if there was a difference that it could still be negligible and there's all sorts variables that go into how well people learn as they get older. But you could be wrong. Can you really accurately track how well you learn on a day to day basis over a lifetime? Doubtful. Even if you could really only learn 85% as well as you did when you were 20 it would be a measurable difference objectively. But subjectively that decline would be so minimal from one day to the next you would have a hard time noticing the decline. And since you still feel sharp at 43, and you felt sharp at 20, well nothing has changed, even though it clearly has. Also some people just lie to themselves about how capable they (still) are. If you've ever dealt with an aging relative who was losing their vision but resistant to giving up driving. Or in the beginning stages of dementia but was in denial about it. Human beings will generally do anything to avoid admitting declining abilities of any sort. Or they will temper an admission with a but of some sort. It's just part of the experience. You bring up a point about experience. Knowledge and experience have value too, obviously. After all young children can learn faster than adults period, but they don't know anything yet, and that's a disadvantage. And being able to learn a little bit better isn't so attractive that you'd be willing to give up all your accumulated experience. I wouldn't either. But I am sure I can share that experience with a 20 something with no knowledge about software development and they'll pick it up much faster than my 60 something mother with no knowledge and software development. And that's where the learning bit comes in. And learning one more thing in a subject you're already an expert in, isn't really a tall order. Starting from scratch, like most children or young adults have to do is a greater feat and put on the same playing field, in a subject where you really have no experience or expertise, you might find the competition a little stiffer than you remember it being than when you were a kid. Still at 43 you're still young, but at 53? 63? 73? At some point there will probably be some obvious differences in your abilities that just become more stark as you age, even if you fare amazingly well against your peers in the same age group. Research that seems to support that people who spend a lot of energy on learning and thinking and doing mentally demanding activities do better cognitively in their old age. I hope it's true, and specifically I hope it's true in my case. If age hasn't proven to be an impediment for learning yet I just wouldn't worry about it. And even if things get tougher to learn as you get older it's not boolean, you can still learn things if you put the effort in, if you still want to learn it. Being less capable != incapable. This isn't a scenario where any position other than #1 is tied with last place, or first place loser, or any other sort of trope you want.
  - geoelectric 10y ago
    44. My memory is definitely a little worse than when young, and I think I've probably slowed down somewhat in the absolute sense. But I also have 21 years of experience to build on, which is quite the accelerator. New tech is frequently old concepts applied in a new way. Once you recognize those core concepts and can find older analogies, you're way ahead. In the end it's a net gain.
- lordnacho 10y ago
  How much of it is age, and how much of it is having kids along with an established routine? I find it pretty easy to learn things, just not when I'm interrupted by the kids. There's no reason why at 36 I can't listen to lectures about philosophy or read a bit about some new tech. What's hard is getting focused time to do a proper project, because my time outside of work hours is taken up by parenting.
  - Dotnaught 10y ago
    Lack of uninterrupted time for learning and experimentation is a real issue if you have a family. I ended up paying to attend a General Assembly JavaScript class recently because while I could easily have learned the material on my own for free, I couldn't guarantee having regular blocks of time to engage with the material otherwise.
- tptacek 10y ago
  "I think we have to be realistic about" is, whether you intend it or not, an attempt to reframe the discussion around your particular set of priors. We need to be careful about language like that. There are many reasons to challenge the assumption that it's difficult for older people to learn to code: * It's may not be valid to extrapolate from more general neuroplasticity findings to programming * It may be that changes in neuroplasticity affect the effectiveness of different modalities of learning, so that it's not so much that it's harder for older people to learn coding, but that they might need to use different strategies to learn --- for instance, 20 year olds might be able to get away with rote memorization as a crutch, and older adults might need to use more authentic learning strategies * It's also possible that for large numbers of adults, learning to code is easier, because their brains have been trained through work they've done throughout their careers * It's also the case that there isn't one "programming", but rather a whole constellation of different skills, some of which reward an orientation towards organization and careful planning, some of which reward tenacity, some of which reward creative and intuitive thinking, some of which reward numeracy, and so on We should be very careful about generalizing, because one thing we do know is that human brains have incredibly powerful cognitive biases that are working constantly to fill in the blanks in our knowledge --- particularly about our models of the behavior and capabilities of other humans --- and much of what it fills in is accurate only up to the point where it allows us to effectively collect berries and hunt gazelles and stuff. For whatever it's worth: I'm 40, not 50, but the tempo at which I've been learning new things is accelerating, not decelerating: I work in more languages now, I work in more problem domains (for instance, I never used to do any front-end work), and in particular my math --- which has always been awful --- has been improving by leaps and bounds. Maybe things will suddenly suck for me when I turn 50, but the current trends are not worrying me.
  - conistonwater 10y ago
    I'm skeptical of arguments based on neuroplasticity or learning styles for the following reason. Given how good people are at learning in general (it is the evolutionary advantage that humans have), it would in fact be extremely surprising if there was anything short of an illness that shut down somebody's ability to learn things. Thus ability to learn things, even when one is older, doesn't need an explanation, whereas inability to learn things does.
facepalm 10y ago
I think programming is comparatively easy to learn. I sometimes wish I had become a physician, but I don't think trying to learn that by myself (or in 21 days or whatever) would be a good idea. With coding, a single good programming book for about 30$ can get you a long way...
- superplussed 10y ago
  I agree, programming is easier to learn than so many other things because of the short feedback loop, the available resources, and the willingness of those who are experienced to talk about what they've learned.
wvenable 10y ago
A big issue I have now is simply time; I think I could easily pick up new things (probably faster) but I no longer have the idle time to do it. You can learn anything but at some point you start prioritizing.

by hd4 10y ago

johansch 10y ago

It does take longer for many people to learn new things when they are 50-60 though. I do think we have to be realistic about the issue that many people who learned and performed complex intellectual skills in their 20s/30s no longer perform this kind of ability to pivot in their 50s/60s; to learn a new craft that depends on learning a lot of new information/skills. Of course this doesn't mean that all people in their 50s/60s are like this. Like this post illustrates.

Baeocystin 10y ago
Speaking as a 43-year old, while I do have some health issues that I didn't have in my 20's, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, I find learning new things as easy as it's ever been. And I honestly don't think I am unusual in that regard. I have a much wider framework of accumulated knowledge than I did 20 years ago, and leveraging that, I can see how wider parts of systems interrelate with a clarity that I never came close to touching in my youth. Perhaps this too will fade in another 20 years, but so far I'm actually enjoying having a middle-aged mind. I can accomplish so much more than I could before.
- BatFastard 10y ago
  As a person in the 50-60 year range, I can say that learning new things is a mixed bag for me. When I was young I was like Velcro, throw information at me and it stuck. Now only the important information stays with me. I wish I could have learned that in my twenties. I would not have a head full of useless information... One advantage of being older is I tend to have a more seasoned perspective of what's important and whats not important in the long run.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Whose definition of important? :)
    - BatFastard 10y ago
      Everyone has their own definition of important. I would like to think that after writing software for 30 years I have a decent knowledge of what my customers value. So for me, reliability, scalability, and ease of use are more important than whether a language supports tail recursion and dynamic typing.
      - Baeocystin 10y ago
        I certainly agree with you there. Cutting the Gordian Knot of overly-complex software salad, and deploying only what my customer needs, while keeping it simple and robust, is how I pay my bills.
- pier25 10y ago
  I'm 37 and I find that I'm smarter and wiser now than I was in my 20s which makes learning much easier even if my brain is almost double the age.
  - johansch 10y ago
    Please report back in 20 years from now. :)
    - pier25 10y ago
      RemindMe! Twenty Years
  - jharger 10y ago
    I'm about the same age and feel the same way. In my 20's I would actually avoid learning something because "I know that stuff already" (Spoiler: I didn't) Now I'm thirsty for new knowledge, and much more willing to admit when I don't know something.
  - Brockenstein 10y ago
    Well 37 isn't really that old. The difference between you and a 20 year old might be measurable, but negligible, when it comes to pure learning. IE you're both learning a task, subject, skill neither of you has knowledge or experience about. Clearly experience and knowledge has great value, and coupled with any normal sort of learning ability is a solid combination that is superior to increased learning alone. After all small children can learn amazingly fast compared to adults. But without knowledge and experience to see how to use what they learn or how to combine it to get new ideas they're at a disadvantage. I mean as a software developer at 35 I know a lot more than I did at 20. I was able to learn pretty quick back then, starting from scratch. I can learn pretty quick now. But with the advantage of knowledge and experience, I'm really only learning a couple of new things at a time to add to an already immense store of knowledge, so yeah it's easy. One new thing and I can see right where it fits into my existing knowledge. It's kind of a different ballgame now compared to when I was 20 when I was still getting a handle on the basics.
- epalmer 10y ago
  Baeocystin - I fit that bill. I am 63. I can learn still but my ability grasp really complex random info has fallen off. My ability to learn info that I am passionate about not so much. I have learned what I can learn and how to learn. In college I could retain a lot for a little time period. Today my short term memory for syntax is not so good. In the book dyslexic advantage[1] they state that dyslexic's short term memory is not as good as the general population but our conceptual memory / ability to visualize is heightened. I am dyslexic and find this to be true. So I learn concepts and thank google every day for syntax. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Dyslexic-Advantage-Unlocking-Hidden-Potential/dp/0452297923/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483634103&sr=8-1&keywords=dyslexic+advantage https://www.amazon.com/Dyslexic-Advantage-Unlocking-Hidden-P... Also Baeocystin I like your HN handle. Edit: Typo Added link to dyslexic advantage
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    Cheers, my fun guy friend! :D I think the 'learning how to learn' skill is possibly the most important one a person can possess, but by its very nature, it isn't something that comes without long practice. I know I can think of how I approached study in my late teens/early 20's with a shiver at my poor choices. I do IT work for small business owners. One of the things that I've noticed over the years is that the number of successful small businesses that are run by dyslexics is much higher than you would expect from the %/population numbers. And it is clear to me that it is their ability to conceptualize what the business needs, visualize how to move forward, and (perhaps most importantly) comfort in delegating tasks that plays a large role in their success. Which works well for me, too. I may not be dyslexic, but I quite enjoy their work style.
    - epalmer 10y ago
      Yes. Turns out I founded, ran and sold two small businesses. I've seen alot of dyslexics in small businesses. Edit: typo
- Brockenstein 10y ago
  I'm not saying you're wrong and 43 is still fairly young (I'm only 35) so it's possible even if there was a difference that it could still be negligible and there's all sorts variables that go into how well people learn as they get older. But you could be wrong. Can you really accurately track how well you learn on a day to day basis over a lifetime? Doubtful. Even if you could really only learn 85% as well as you did when you were 20 it would be a measurable difference objectively. But subjectively that decline would be so minimal from one day to the next you would have a hard time noticing the decline. And since you still feel sharp at 43, and you felt sharp at 20, well nothing has changed, even though it clearly has. Also some people just lie to themselves about how capable they (still) are. If you've ever dealt with an aging relative who was losing their vision but resistant to giving up driving. Or in the beginning stages of dementia but was in denial about it. Human beings will generally do anything to avoid admitting declining abilities of any sort. Or they will temper an admission with a but of some sort. It's just part of the experience. You bring up a point about experience. Knowledge and experience have value too, obviously. After all young children can learn faster than adults period, but they don't know anything yet, and that's a disadvantage. And being able to learn a little bit better isn't so attractive that you'd be willing to give up all your accumulated experience. I wouldn't either. But I am sure I can share that experience with a 20 something with no knowledge about software development and they'll pick it up much faster than my 60 something mother with no knowledge and software development. And that's where the learning bit comes in. And learning one more thing in a subject you're already an expert in, isn't really a tall order. Starting from scratch, like most children or young adults have to do is a greater feat and put on the same playing field, in a subject where you really have no experience or expertise, you might find the competition a little stiffer than you remember it being than when you were a kid. Still at 43 you're still young, but at 53? 63? 73? At some point there will probably be some obvious differences in your abilities that just become more stark as you age, even if you fare amazingly well against your peers in the same age group. Research that seems to support that people who spend a lot of energy on learning and thinking and doing mentally demanding activities do better cognitively in their old age. I hope it's true, and specifically I hope it's true in my case. If age hasn't proven to be an impediment for learning yet I just wouldn't worry about it. And even if things get tougher to learn as you get older it's not boolean, you can still learn things if you put the effort in, if you still want to learn it. Being less capable != incapable. This isn't a scenario where any position other than #1 is tied with last place, or first place loser, or any other sort of trope you want.
- geoelectric 10y ago
  44. My memory is definitely a little worse than when young, and I think I've probably slowed down somewhat in the absolute sense. But I also have 21 years of experience to build on, which is quite the accelerator. New tech is frequently old concepts applied in a new way. Once you recognize those core concepts and can find older analogies, you're way ahead. In the end it's a net gain.
lordnacho 10y ago
How much of it is age, and how much of it is having kids along with an established routine? I find it pretty easy to learn things, just not when I'm interrupted by the kids. There's no reason why at 36 I can't listen to lectures about philosophy or read a bit about some new tech. What's hard is getting focused time to do a proper project, because my time outside of work hours is taken up by parenting.
- Dotnaught 10y ago
  Lack of uninterrupted time for learning and experimentation is a real issue if you have a family. I ended up paying to attend a General Assembly JavaScript class recently because while I could easily have learned the material on my own for free, I couldn't guarantee having regular blocks of time to engage with the material otherwise.
tptacek 10y ago
"I think we have to be realistic about" is, whether you intend it or not, an attempt to reframe the discussion around your particular set of priors. We need to be careful about language like that. There are many reasons to challenge the assumption that it's difficult for older people to learn to code: * It's may not be valid to extrapolate from more general neuroplasticity findings to programming * It may be that changes in neuroplasticity affect the effectiveness of different modalities of learning, so that it's not so much that it's harder for older people to learn coding, but that they might need to use different strategies to learn --- for instance, 20 year olds might be able to get away with rote memorization as a crutch, and older adults might need to use more authentic learning strategies * It's also possible that for large numbers of adults, learning to code is easier, because their brains have been trained through work they've done throughout their careers * It's also the case that there isn't one "programming", but rather a whole constellation of different skills, some of which reward an orientation towards organization and careful planning, some of which reward tenacity, some of which reward creative and intuitive thinking, some of which reward numeracy, and so on We should be very careful about generalizing, because one thing we do know is that human brains have incredibly powerful cognitive biases that are working constantly to fill in the blanks in our knowledge --- particularly about our models of the behavior and capabilities of other humans --- and much of what it fills in is accurate only up to the point where it allows us to effectively collect berries and hunt gazelles and stuff. For whatever it's worth: I'm 40, not 50, but the tempo at which I've been learning new things is accelerating, not decelerating: I work in more languages now, I work in more problem domains (for instance, I never used to do any front-end work), and in particular my math --- which has always been awful --- has been improving by leaps and bounds. Maybe things will suddenly suck for me when I turn 50, but the current trends are not worrying me.
- conistonwater 10y ago
  I'm skeptical of arguments based on neuroplasticity or learning styles for the following reason. Given how good people are at learning in general (it is the evolutionary advantage that humans have), it would in fact be extremely surprising if there was anything short of an illness that shut down somebody's ability to learn things. Thus ability to learn things, even when one is older, doesn't need an explanation, whereas inability to learn things does.

facepalm 10y ago

I think programming is comparatively easy to learn. I sometimes wish I had become a physician, but I don't think trying to learn that by myself (or in 21 days or whatever) would be a good idea. With coding, a single good programming book for about 30$ can get you a long way...

superplussed 10y ago
I agree, programming is easier to learn than so many other things because of the short feedback loop, the available resources, and the willingness of those who are experienced to talk about what they've learned.

wvenable 10y ago

A big issue I have now is simply time; I think I could easily pick up new things (probably faster) but I no longer have the idle time to do it. You can learn anything but at some point you start prioritizing.