8 ms·

If you want to have financial privacy, start learning about cryptocurrencies. Getting to know bitcoin is obvious, but there are also other kids on the block. M

by urza 10y ago

If you want to have financial privacy, start learning about cryptocurrencies. Getting to know bitcoin is obvious, but there are also other kids on the block. Monero is the most successful cryptocurrency that has privacy built in: https://getmonero.org/home https://getmonero.org/home In the medium term no banks in any country will be able to provide you financial privacy. We're not there yet, bu it is coming. And as a bonus with cc you get money that cannot be "frozen" because some government says so or money that disappears because your bank/government screws up. In the future cryptocurrencies will be more real money then fiat currrencies. For some countries this is true alredy today.

chakalakasp 10y ago
"Here, put your money in this magic box. It may double in value in a week or it may be worth pennies on the dollar tomorrow. Nobody will know what you do with this money if you shake the box right. Put the box under your bed -- if you lose it, all your money is gone." Bitcoin and the Swiss banking industry are apples and oranges.
- EthanHeilman 10y ago
  >Bitcoin and the Swiss banking industry are apples and oranges. I'd say it is a babies to cemeteries comparison. Banking privacy is dead or dying. Cryptocurrencies offer enormous potential however with regard to privacy they are still in the experimental phase and require time to mature and develop.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Cryptocurrencies log all transactions in a world-readable log. Their only privacy is pseudonymity, which is very easily breached. And it's quite a hassle to acquire without going through an exchange which logs all your personal information for AML anyway.
    - smokeyj 10y ago
      > Cryptocurrencies log all transactions in a world-readable log. True for now but there's some interesting experiments in this space, such as zero knowledge proofs, currently in dash and porting to ethereum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge...). > And it's quite a hassle to acquire without going through an exchange which logs all your personal information for AML anyway. Also true, but crypto to crypto exchanges are relatively lax on regulation. It'd be trivial to trade into an anonymous coin, mix, then back to a public coin for some degree of anonymity.
    - amjd 10y ago
      This used to be the case, but not anymore. As mentioned in one of the parent comments, there are now cryptocurrencies that provide anonymity as well, check Monero [1] and Zcash [2]. [1] https://getmonero.org/home https://getmonero.org/home [2] https://z.cash/ https://z.cash/
      - tw04 10y ago
        And you can bet if they gain any traction, they will be dealt with swiftly by the US government under the guise of "war on drugs". This has been repeated so many times now that it makes my head hurt to think anyone actually believes you're going to have anonymity in banking/money exchanges.
        EthanHeilman 10y ago
        Do you think we are in the final days of cash? Will we return to the pure debt based economies of the ancient world and never change course? The US government's relationship with the global banking network is the result of very particular conditions following the end of the second world war and the end of the cold war. As these conditions shift over the next 10-20 years I'm not sure we can predict that these anti-privacy priorities will be maintained.
    - CyberDildonics 10y ago
      > very easily breached What happens when someone exchanges one currency for another?
  - iheartmemcache 10y ago
    The days of high ranking German officers stashing art and bullion proceeds into a numbered accounts are gone, and have been for decades. Modern Swiss banking privacy is for the DuPont heirs. Their job is to carefully study international tax code, remittance policies of specific countries, volatility of currencies, and a bit of family law within the locales of their clients to minimize divorce losses. Swiss banks exist because they offer a continuity of service. You bank with Julius Baer because your father banked with him. He was at your christening. The overlap between those who crypto-currency user and a private bank client (as anything other than a 'haha, alright let's throw 100k EUR at it and see where it lands' in a speculative fashion) is minimal. This is a token gesture to the US government saying effectively - hey, fine, Homeland Security, go through any record you like, as long as it's not a Swiss national record. If we were unknowingly complicit in a wire transfer from a Saudi oil account to a Yemeni terror cell, by all means, go for it. Simultaneously, those Carnegie steel heirs are still protected because their name might be listed as "Director" few holding AG's but "sorry, no earning assets there. Any retained earnings go directly to the parent company, we'd love to help you out but it's a Lichtenstein AG. You'll Have to speak to their banking administration." (Oh fun fact, Lichtenstein has more registered companies than it does citizens.) This [0] is how an average run-of-the-mill Swiss Bank constructs their protection. Look at how that institution itself is structured -- Private Investment Bank Ltd is a fully licensed Bank in the Bahamas, established in 1982. It is wholly-owned by Banque Cramer & Cie SA, Geneva, Switzerland, which is a subsidiary of Norinvest Holding SA, a company having family origins in the financial as well as in the industrial sector, dating back to 1871." Rest assured, this is just the tip of the iceberg. (That bank isn't particularly reputed for their private banking services.) Think of banking privacy a lot like the security within your home. An average person with a Kwik-key frontdoor can get bump-keyed or pin-raked in well under a minute[1]. This is basically like opening an auxiliary bank account in a confidant's name to protect against divorce asset issues in a low net-worth scenario (a good attorney will be able to bypass something like that trivially, leading you down forfeiture road). You throw in a security key like this fancy schmancy German engineered key[2] that's resistant to standard rake-pick techniques, you've upped the entry barrier (haha ugh bad pun intended) from "common thief" to "a professional has likely targeted specifically your house on the Hamptons for that original Matisse you bought at Sotheby's". The banking equivalent of that German key is consulting with UBS or HSBC's private wealth division. If you come from old money, your family has already established all the right safe guards against shirt-loss in divorce, the right non-profit foundations structured, and proper holding companies located in the right tax domiciles (think: Google and 11% in Ireland) structured on any profits yielded.[see: 4] Sufficient protection for civil suits (i.e., that professional art thief), but your 'lock' won't hold up to the hydraulic battering ram[3] that SWAT uses to break down your door after a ADA goes before a judge alleging you're involved in a terror plot and/or involved in a large drug operation, providing the judge with what seems to be sufficient evidence to sign off on a no-knock warrant. (Though I'd suppose, those battering rams would certainly provide enough 'knock'.) Your HSBC private wealth account might provide you with enough insulation against municipal prosecutors, but certainly not the US DHS at that point. Here's the thing though - at that point, Swiss banks don't want your money. They'll keep the DuPont and Koch fortunes safe from gold-diggers but they don't want darknet money used to purchase guns, child porn, drugs, or anything even remotely connected to terror. Anything involving proceedings at the first-world federal investigator level (IRS grey-suits notwithstanding, those meetings occur with the run-of-the-mill regularity like the clockwork of a good Patek Philippe [sorry, I couldn't resist]) is a severe impedance for business as usual. [0] https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-e2b8900613b1/PIBL_Brochure_A4.pdf https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-... [1] The good lock-pickers won't even leave deformation marks on the unit, since they've basically got their hands calibrated to the point where they can feel when their pick engages on a pin. [2] http://www.theamazingking.com/images/locks/dom-key.jpg http://www.theamazingking.com/images/locks/dom-key.jpg [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_breaching#/media/File:Trgso19.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_breaching#/media/File:Trg... [4] https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-e2b8900613b1/PIBL_Brochure_A4.pdf https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-... Here's how a typical private bank structures the assets of their clients to protect against divorce.
- imglorp 10y ago
  Sort of. Gold, the commodity, is a better analog. Its price might fluctuate with the markets but it shouldn't vanish at this point.
- dghughes 10y ago
  Bitcoin is like a cult. People praise it for going up, deny anything is wrong when it goes down, ignore the mysterious person who created it, spurn the heathen alternate cryptocurrencies. Sure I like the idea but I don't like the Bitcoin culture.
  - ReverseCold 10y ago
    > ignore the mysterious person who created it Does that matter? It's not like they have any control over it.
    - dghughes 10y ago
      To me it does. How do you know? We don't even know if it's a they a him or her. I understand the blockchain concept but still we can't accept it as infallible. Nobody should be shouted down for asking questions.
      - x1798DE 10y ago
        > To me it does. How do you know? We don't even know if it's a they a him or her. It would be fallacious to reason about the soundness of bitcoin based on the person who created it anyway, given that you are not being asked to trust it based on reputation - they are many better sources of information to use when making a decision about the soundness of the currency. > I understand the blockchain concept but still we can't accept it as infallible. No one is saying to accept it as infallible, and in fact not knowing who created it helps with that sort of thing, given that you have to actually evaluate it for what it is instead of just saying, "Well, X created it and I love everything else they've done."
  - eugeniub 10y ago
    By "ignore the mysterious person who created it", do you mean badger random old Japanese men at their homes and publish hundreds of unwanted photos of them?
    - chronolitus 10y ago
- awt 10y ago
  Bitcoin and its flaws are rather well understood at this point but perhaps only by a few. Indeed if you do not understand it, stay out.

by urza 10y ago

chakalakasp 10y ago

"Here, put your money in this magic box. It may double in value in a week or it may be worth pennies on the dollar tomorrow. Nobody will know what you do with this money if you shake the box right. Put the box under your bed -- if you lose it, all your money is gone." Bitcoin and the Swiss banking industry are apples and oranges.

EthanHeilman 10y ago
>Bitcoin and the Swiss banking industry are apples and oranges. I'd say it is a babies to cemeteries comparison. Banking privacy is dead or dying. Cryptocurrencies offer enormous potential however with regard to privacy they are still in the experimental phase and require time to mature and develop.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Cryptocurrencies log all transactions in a world-readable log. Their only privacy is pseudonymity, which is very easily breached. And it's quite a hassle to acquire without going through an exchange which logs all your personal information for AML anyway.
  - smokeyj 10y ago
    > Cryptocurrencies log all transactions in a world-readable log. True for now but there's some interesting experiments in this space, such as zero knowledge proofs, currently in dash and porting to ethereum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge...). > And it's quite a hassle to acquire without going through an exchange which logs all your personal information for AML anyway. Also true, but crypto to crypto exchanges are relatively lax on regulation. It'd be trivial to trade into an anonymous coin, mix, then back to a public coin for some degree of anonymity.
  - amjd 10y ago
    This used to be the case, but not anymore. As mentioned in one of the parent comments, there are now cryptocurrencies that provide anonymity as well, check Monero [1] and Zcash [2]. [1] https://getmonero.org/home https://getmonero.org/home [2] https://z.cash/ https://z.cash/
    - tw04 10y ago
      And you can bet if they gain any traction, they will be dealt with swiftly by the US government under the guise of "war on drugs". This has been repeated so many times now that it makes my head hurt to think anyone actually believes you're going to have anonymity in banking/money exchanges.
      - EthanHeilman 10y ago
        Do you think we are in the final days of cash? Will we return to the pure debt based economies of the ancient world and never change course? The US government's relationship with the global banking network is the result of very particular conditions following the end of the second world war and the end of the cold war. As these conditions shift over the next 10-20 years I'm not sure we can predict that these anti-privacy priorities will be maintained.
  - CyberDildonics 10y ago
    > very easily breached What happens when someone exchanges one currency for another?
- iheartmemcache 10y ago
  The days of high ranking German officers stashing art and bullion proceeds into a numbered accounts are gone, and have been for decades. Modern Swiss banking privacy is for the DuPont heirs. Their job is to carefully study international tax code, remittance policies of specific countries, volatility of currencies, and a bit of family law within the locales of their clients to minimize divorce losses. Swiss banks exist because they offer a continuity of service. You bank with Julius Baer because your father banked with him. He was at your christening. The overlap between those who crypto-currency user and a private bank client (as anything other than a 'haha, alright let's throw 100k EUR at it and see where it lands' in a speculative fashion) is minimal. This is a token gesture to the US government saying effectively - hey, fine, Homeland Security, go through any record you like, as long as it's not a Swiss national record. If we were unknowingly complicit in a wire transfer from a Saudi oil account to a Yemeni terror cell, by all means, go for it. Simultaneously, those Carnegie steel heirs are still protected because their name might be listed as "Director" few holding AG's but "sorry, no earning assets there. Any retained earnings go directly to the parent company, we'd love to help you out but it's a Lichtenstein AG. You'll Have to speak to their banking administration." (Oh fun fact, Lichtenstein has more registered companies than it does citizens.) This [0] is how an average run-of-the-mill Swiss Bank constructs their protection. Look at how that institution itself is structured -- Private Investment Bank Ltd is a fully licensed Bank in the Bahamas, established in 1982. It is wholly-owned by Banque Cramer & Cie SA, Geneva, Switzerland, which is a subsidiary of Norinvest Holding SA, a company having family origins in the financial as well as in the industrial sector, dating back to 1871." Rest assured, this is just the tip of the iceberg. (That bank isn't particularly reputed for their private banking services.) Think of banking privacy a lot like the security within your home. An average person with a Kwik-key frontdoor can get bump-keyed or pin-raked in well under a minute[1]. This is basically like opening an auxiliary bank account in a confidant's name to protect against divorce asset issues in a low net-worth scenario (a good attorney will be able to bypass something like that trivially, leading you down forfeiture road). You throw in a security key like this fancy schmancy German engineered key[2] that's resistant to standard rake-pick techniques, you've upped the entry barrier (haha ugh bad pun intended) from "common thief" to "a professional has likely targeted specifically your house on the Hamptons for that original Matisse you bought at Sotheby's". The banking equivalent of that German key is consulting with UBS or HSBC's private wealth division. If you come from old money, your family has already established all the right safe guards against shirt-loss in divorce, the right non-profit foundations structured, and proper holding companies located in the right tax domiciles (think: Google and 11% in Ireland) structured on any profits yielded.[see: 4] Sufficient protection for civil suits (i.e., that professional art thief), but your 'lock' won't hold up to the hydraulic battering ram[3] that SWAT uses to break down your door after a ADA goes before a judge alleging you're involved in a terror plot and/or involved in a large drug operation, providing the judge with what seems to be sufficient evidence to sign off on a no-knock warrant. (Though I'd suppose, those battering rams would certainly provide enough 'knock'.) Your HSBC private wealth account might provide you with enough insulation against municipal prosecutors, but certainly not the US DHS at that point. Here's the thing though - at that point, Swiss banks don't want your money. They'll keep the DuPont and Koch fortunes safe from gold-diggers but they don't want darknet money used to purchase guns, child porn, drugs, or anything even remotely connected to terror. Anything involving proceedings at the first-world federal investigator level (IRS grey-suits notwithstanding, those meetings occur with the run-of-the-mill regularity like the clockwork of a good Patek Philippe [sorry, I couldn't resist]) is a severe impedance for business as usual. [0] https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-e2b8900613b1/PIBL_Brochure_A4.pdf https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-... [1] The good lock-pickers won't even leave deformation marks on the unit, since they've basically got their hands calibrated to the point where they can feel when their pick engages on a pin. [2] http://www.theamazingking.com/images/locks/dom-key.jpg http://www.theamazingking.com/images/locks/dom-key.jpg [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_breaching#/media/File:Trgso19.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_breaching#/media/File:Trg... [4] https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-e2b8900613b1/PIBL_Brochure_A4.pdf https://www.banquecramer.ch/dam/jcr:7813a747-9c8c-4101-8091-... Here's how a typical private bank structures the assets of their clients to protect against divorce.
imglorp 10y ago
Sort of. Gold, the commodity, is a better analog. Its price might fluctuate with the markets but it shouldn't vanish at this point.
dghughes 10y ago
Bitcoin is like a cult. People praise it for going up, deny anything is wrong when it goes down, ignore the mysterious person who created it, spurn the heathen alternate cryptocurrencies. Sure I like the idea but I don't like the Bitcoin culture.
- ReverseCold 10y ago
  > ignore the mysterious person who created it Does that matter? It's not like they have any control over it.
  - dghughes 10y ago
    To me it does. How do you know? We don't even know if it's a they a him or her. I understand the blockchain concept but still we can't accept it as infallible. Nobody should be shouted down for asking questions.
    - x1798DE 10y ago
      > To me it does. How do you know? We don't even know if it's a they a him or her. It would be fallacious to reason about the soundness of bitcoin based on the person who created it anyway, given that you are not being asked to trust it based on reputation - they are many better sources of information to use when making a decision about the soundness of the currency. > I understand the blockchain concept but still we can't accept it as infallible. No one is saying to accept it as infallible, and in fact not knowing who created it helps with that sort of thing, given that you have to actually evaluate it for what it is instead of just saying, "Well, X created it and I love everything else they've done."
- eugeniub 10y ago
  By "ignore the mysterious person who created it", do you mean badger random old Japanese men at their homes and publish hundreds of unwanted photos of them?
  - chronolitus 10y ago
awt 10y ago
Bitcoin and its flaws are rather well understood at this point but perhaps only by a few. Indeed if you do not understand it, stay out.