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Let me elaborate on the isolated part a bit maybe. I speak almost fluent Japanese but the problem comes more in the very strong cultural difference that you ar

by dvcrn 10y ago

Let me elaborate on the isolated part a bit maybe. I speak almost fluent Japanese but the problem comes more in the very strong cultural difference that you are mostly not even aware of unless you are indeed fluent and surrounded by people that tell you your mistakes (which doesn't happen often). It is (IMO) very hard to make 'good' Japanese friends (not talking about occasional drinking buddies). People seem nice but (especially in Tokyo) often don't tell you what they really think or feel. Being direct and honest about certain things is just not the way things are done here, that starts already at the language level and why you would rather say that something is difficult than not possible (それは難しいです・・・, pretty sure you heard that already a few times.) Being direct as a foreigner and speaking in a direct way can work but is thus because of the difference in talking and nuance further isolating you and giving you the 'foreigner / 外人' stamp on your forehead, maybe without you really realizing that it's happening. A side-effect of that is that you get considered as, well, a foreigner. Maybe someone who is fun and weird to hang out with but not actually someone who could become a deep friend. Then of course you have the other group of people that are strangely open and direct to you, but more than often that's the kind of people that only want a foreign boyfriend or someone to practice english with and nothing else. Sure, everyone is indeed very very friendly and supportive but that can easily be confused with the polite nature that's rooted deeply in this country. That can also come over as shy and introverted, but if the majority of the people comes over as shy and introverted it's maybe not the people that's different but rather you. Not saying at all that it's bad here. I am still really enjoying my time with a rough 4 years in total but it definitely depends if you want to be fully integrated or always wear that foreigner hat.

a_bonobo 10y ago
>Sure, everyone is indeed very very friendly and supportive but that can easily be confused with the polite nature that's rooted deeply in this country. Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae I have a Japanese wife and quasi-lived in Japan for a few months doing remote work, and the tatemae part is quite isolating. People are extremely friendly but there is a certain mask-like thing to it - it's very hard to describe. Politeness, but often it's politeness without warmth?
timr 10y ago
Yep, I'm familiar with everything you're saying. You definitely don't need language fluency to know that you're being treated differently...just time, and a bit of social awareness. They aren't particularly subtle about it. But in my experience, this is also true of any place where your foreignness is advertised by your skin color or facial structure or height or whatever -- you're just going to be treated like a stranger, because, well, you are one. I've met a fair number of long-term expats now, and there's a group who have taken this personally, and now have a complex about never being "truly accepted"; then there are the ones who have embraced their otherness. Those latter folks are totally aware they're different, and they just decide that they're going to be themselves, but in Japan. They seem to get along quite well. I've met foreigners who run businesses, many who are married, and even a few who are involved in local government, organizing matsuri, and so on. Anyway, I'm not suggesting that it's easy, or that I'm in that latter group. I'm just saying that I've seen it, and it's possible, and that it seems to come most readily when you know and accept where you stand. (Also...for the record, I've heard this exact complaint from expats in every country I've ever visited, including Europe. I was once considering moving to the Netherlands, and I had a dozen lily-white expats telling me that the Dutch are great and friendly and incredibly polite, but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people.)
- spiderfarmer 10y ago
  > but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people This is sort of a "bubble" problem. Dutch people that are "settled" already have a loyal circle of friends and are not always looking to make more friends. There's also the problem that expats usually work in demanding jobs with lots of competition and not a lot free time. It's hard to make friends that way, especially if half of your colleagues are rushing to daycare to pick up their kids. If you were able to move out of that bubble, to a less populous / competitive area, you might find much more laid back people.
  - timr 10y ago
    "This is sort of a "bubble" problem. Dutch people that are "settled" already have a loyal circle of friends and are not always looking to make more friends." This is always true, everywhere. Long-time residents of a place have a network of friends/family that newcomers don't have. It's not unique to the Dutch or the Japanese. This brings up a point I forgot: most expats are young, and have zero experience making friends outside of the social bubble of school. This is hard enough if you're just moving in your own country, but it's worse if you're moving to a place where you don't speak the language well. This is probably a source of a lot of the complaints about cultures being especially closed or unfriendly.

by dvcrn 10y ago

a_bonobo 10y ago

>Sure, everyone is indeed very very friendly and supportive but that can easily be confused with the polite nature that's rooted deeply in this country. Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae I have a Japanese wife and quasi-lived in Japan for a few months doing remote work, and the tatemae part is quite isolating. People are extremely friendly but there is a certain mask-like thing to it - it's very hard to describe. Politeness, but often it's politeness without warmth?

timr 10y ago

Yep, I'm familiar with everything you're saying. You definitely don't need language fluency to know that you're being treated differently...just time, and a bit of social awareness. They aren't particularly subtle about it. But in my experience, this is also true of any place where your foreignness is advertised by your skin color or facial structure or height or whatever -- you're just going to be treated like a stranger, because, well, you are one. I've met a fair number of long-term expats now, and there's a group who have taken this personally, and now have a complex about never being "truly accepted"; then there are the ones who have embraced their otherness. Those latter folks are totally aware they're different, and they just decide that they're going to be themselves, but in Japan. They seem to get along quite well. I've met foreigners who run businesses, many who are married, and even a few who are involved in local government, organizing matsuri, and so on. Anyway, I'm not suggesting that it's easy, or that I'm in that latter group. I'm just saying that I've seen it, and it's possible, and that it seems to come most readily when you know and accept where you stand. (Also...for the record, I've heard this exact complaint from expats in every country I've ever visited, including Europe. I was once considering moving to the Netherlands, and I had a dozen lily-white expats telling me that the Dutch are great and friendly and incredibly polite, but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people.)

spiderfarmer 10y ago
> but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people This is sort of a "bubble" problem. Dutch people that are "settled" already have a loyal circle of friends and are not always looking to make more friends. There's also the problem that expats usually work in demanding jobs with lots of competition and not a lot free time. It's hard to make friends that way, especially if half of your colleagues are rushing to daycare to pick up their kids. If you were able to move out of that bubble, to a less populous / competitive area, you might find much more laid back people.
- timr 10y ago
  "This is sort of a "bubble" problem. Dutch people that are "settled" already have a loyal circle of friends and are not always looking to make more friends." This is always true, everywhere. Long-time residents of a place have a network of friends/family that newcomers don't have. It's not unique to the Dutch or the Japanese. This brings up a point I forgot: most expats are young, and have zero experience making friends outside of the social bubble of school. This is hard enough if you're just moving in your own country, but it's worse if you're moving to a place where you don't speak the language well. This is probably a source of a lot of the complaints about cultures being especially closed or unfriendly.