6 ms·

Culture yes, but depending on the company, the working environment is not that awesome :p Also it's very easy to feel isolated as a foreigner and seeing thousan

by dvcrn 10y ago

Culture yes, but depending on the company, the working environment is not that awesome :p Also it's very easy to feel isolated as a foreigner and seeing thousands of people squishing themselves into the trains every morning doesn't make it better. Though the startup scene here is changing very strongly and bigger companies from all over the world open offices here and consider Japan as the 'gateway into the asian market'. Give it a try! The dream of moving to Japan is really not that difficult, especially if you're doing IT.

timr 10y ago
it's very easy to feel isolated as a foreigner and seeing thousands of people squishing themselves into the trains every morning doesn't make it better. I'm here now, have been for six months (on sabbatical; studying Japanese half-time). It's interesting...sometimes I feel isolated (as anyone would when you don't speak or read the language fluently), but folks here have been quite friendly and supportive. I've found it easier to make friends here than in SF (where I've lived for eight years). Inasmuch as you can generalize an entire country, people here are forgiving and curious and friendly...just shy/introverted and overworked. The foreign people who do best here seem to be the folks who are a) at least a little bit outgoing and well-adjusted, and b) don't have unrealistic prior expectations of what "Japan" is. So many weirdo, socially isolated expats come here expecting one long manga/anime/kawaii/samurai adventure that will fix their broken lives, and they're disappointed to find a country of normal people who work hard, have families and lives, and mostly don't do any of those things. Love the food and the baths and the transit though. Wish they would adopt insulation. And decent cheese.
- dvcrn 10y ago
  Let me elaborate on the isolated part a bit maybe. I speak almost fluent Japanese but the problem comes more in the very strong cultural difference that you are mostly not even aware of unless you are indeed fluent and surrounded by people that tell you your mistakes (which doesn't happen often). It is (IMO) very hard to make 'good' Japanese friends (not talking about occasional drinking buddies). People seem nice but (especially in Tokyo) often don't tell you what they really think or feel. Being direct and honest about certain things is just not the way things are done here, that starts already at the language level and why you would rather say that something is difficult than not possible (それは難しいです・・・, pretty sure you heard that already a few times.) Being direct as a foreigner and speaking in a direct way can work but is thus because of the difference in talking and nuance further isolating you and giving you the 'foreigner / 外人' stamp on your forehead, maybe without you really realizing that it's happening. A side-effect of that is that you get considered as, well, a foreigner. Maybe someone who is fun and weird to hang out with but not actually someone who could become a deep friend. Then of course you have the other group of people that are strangely open and direct to you, but more than often that's the kind of people that only want a foreign boyfriend or someone to practice english with and nothing else. Sure, everyone is indeed very very friendly and supportive but that can easily be confused with the polite nature that's rooted deeply in this country. That can also come over as shy and introverted, but if the majority of the people comes over as shy and introverted it's maybe not the people that's different but rather you. Not saying at all that it's bad here. I am still really enjoying my time with a rough 4 years in total but it definitely depends if you want to be fully integrated or always wear that foreigner hat.
  - a_bonobo 10y ago
    >Sure, everyone is indeed very very friendly and supportive but that can easily be confused with the polite nature that's rooted deeply in this country. Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae I have a Japanese wife and quasi-lived in Japan for a few months doing remote work, and the tatemae part is quite isolating. People are extremely friendly but there is a certain mask-like thing to it - it's very hard to describe. Politeness, but often it's politeness without warmth?
  - timr 10y ago
    Yep, I'm familiar with everything you're saying. You definitely don't need language fluency to know that you're being treated differently...just time, and a bit of social awareness. They aren't particularly subtle about it. But in my experience, this is also true of any place where your foreignness is advertised by your skin color or facial structure or height or whatever -- you're just going to be treated like a stranger, because, well, you are one. I've met a fair number of long-term expats now, and there's a group who have taken this personally, and now have a complex about never being "truly accepted"; then there are the ones who have embraced their otherness. Those latter folks are totally aware they're different, and they just decide that they're going to be themselves, but in Japan. They seem to get along quite well. I've met foreigners who run businesses, many who are married, and even a few who are involved in local government, organizing matsuri, and so on. Anyway, I'm not suggesting that it's easy, or that I'm in that latter group. I'm just saying that I've seen it, and it's possible, and that it seems to come most readily when you know and accept where you stand. (Also...for the record, I've heard this exact complaint from expats in every country I've ever visited, including Europe. I was once considering moving to the Netherlands, and I had a dozen lily-white expats telling me that the Dutch are great and friendly and incredibly polite, but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people.)
    - spiderfarmer 10y ago
      > but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people This is sort of a "bubble" problem. Dutch people that are "settled" already have a loyal circle of friends and are not always looking to make more friends. There's also the problem that expats usually work in demanding jobs with lots of competition and not a lot free time. It's hard to make friends that way, especially if half of your colleagues are rushing to daycare to pick up their kids. If you were able to move out of that bubble, to a less populous / competitive area, you might find much more laid back people.
- merb 10y ago
  > ocially isolated expats come here expecting one long manga/anime/kawaii/samurai adventure that will fix their broken lives Well I guess I'm somewhat inside that niche, however I would not expect my broken live to be fixed without any effort. Also before going there, I would probably learn japanese or make holiday there. Well I'm not good at getting friends and I doubt that neither in japan I would make many. I just love their culture and their food (at least some, katsudon <3 and other dishes). I also actually are a big fan of buildins and history, which japan has a lot. I also heard that they have a special work mentality (which you also described). And somehow if my work is good I love it, which makes me like the longer working hours. For me that make's me more happy than actually making friends (I know I'm a wierdo) and somehow I think japan would be a whole new challenge for me. But as already stated I doubt I couldn't be there for more than 6 months to 1 year. I still love my home besides the fact that I live in a small town in Germany which is nothing compared to the SF area or any japanese town. Edit: Great comments from a lot of people, Thanks that makes me actually more engaged to make savings to visit Japan at least once in my life.
agibsonccc 10y ago
I just got my visa for 1 year running a company here. I setup the company to be distributed. I am based in Tokyo. I can say despite not speaking the language it was the best decision I have ever made. Both locals and expats are friendly. If you are going to do business here it is best to have someone on your team who speaks the language though. Another big reason I love it here is how safe it is. After having lived in SF for a few years, there's a lot to be said for that. Re: being difficult. I would disagree. Moving to Japan and dealing with immigration took me 4 months and multiple lawyers. The bureaucracy is real.
- dvcrn 10y ago
  Are you talking about the normal startup visa here that's valid for 1 year? I wasn't aware that it's this annoying to get. From my understanding, you have to hand in the papers (with a basic business plan), incorporate your company and after a year, proof that you indeed make money. For all other visas you just need a sponsor (company) / proof that you can make money as a freelancer and, well, a university degree. Japan might even be one of the only countries that effectively lets you skip the university degree (and 10 years of work experience) requirement with the right certificate that should be no problem to get if you know your computer science basics
  - agibsonccc 10y ago
    I did an intra company transfer with an already existing subsidiary. In our case we are venture funded with a seed round in the millions. The devil here is in the details. We also have a deal with jetro: http://jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/companies-chosen-global-innovation-centers-subsidy-announced.html http://jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/companies-chosen-global-innova... as well as a ton of Japanese PR which helped. Half of our difficulty was actually finding a good law firm that understood how software companies work.

by dvcrn 10y ago

timr 10y ago

it's very easy to feel isolated as a foreigner and seeing thousands of people squishing themselves into the trains every morning doesn't make it better. I'm here now, have been for six months (on sabbatical; studying Japanese half-time). It's interesting...sometimes I feel isolated (as anyone would when you don't speak or read the language fluently), but folks here have been quite friendly and supportive. I've found it easier to make friends here than in SF (where I've lived for eight years). Inasmuch as you can generalize an entire country, people here are forgiving and curious and friendly...just shy/introverted and overworked. The foreign people who do best here seem to be the folks who are a) at least a little bit outgoing and well-adjusted, and b) don't have unrealistic prior expectations of what "Japan" is. So many weirdo, socially isolated expats come here expecting one long manga/anime/kawaii/samurai adventure that will fix their broken lives, and they're disappointed to find a country of normal people who work hard, have families and lives, and mostly don't do any of those things. Love the food and the baths and the transit though. Wish they would adopt insulation. And decent cheese.

dvcrn 10y ago
Let me elaborate on the isolated part a bit maybe. I speak almost fluent Japanese but the problem comes more in the very strong cultural difference that you are mostly not even aware of unless you are indeed fluent and surrounded by people that tell you your mistakes (which doesn't happen often). It is (IMO) very hard to make 'good' Japanese friends (not talking about occasional drinking buddies). People seem nice but (especially in Tokyo) often don't tell you what they really think or feel. Being direct and honest about certain things is just not the way things are done here, that starts already at the language level and why you would rather say that something is difficult than not possible (それは難しいです・・・, pretty sure you heard that already a few times.) Being direct as a foreigner and speaking in a direct way can work but is thus because of the difference in talking and nuance further isolating you and giving you the 'foreigner / 外人' stamp on your forehead, maybe without you really realizing that it's happening. A side-effect of that is that you get considered as, well, a foreigner. Maybe someone who is fun and weird to hang out with but not actually someone who could become a deep friend. Then of course you have the other group of people that are strangely open and direct to you, but more than often that's the kind of people that only want a foreign boyfriend or someone to practice english with and nothing else. Sure, everyone is indeed very very friendly and supportive but that can easily be confused with the polite nature that's rooted deeply in this country. That can also come over as shy and introverted, but if the majority of the people comes over as shy and introverted it's maybe not the people that's different but rather you. Not saying at all that it's bad here. I am still really enjoying my time with a rough 4 years in total but it definitely depends if you want to be fully integrated or always wear that foreigner hat.
- a_bonobo 10y ago
  >Sure, everyone is indeed very very friendly and supportive but that can easily be confused with the polite nature that's rooted deeply in this country. Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae I have a Japanese wife and quasi-lived in Japan for a few months doing remote work, and the tatemae part is quite isolating. People are extremely friendly but there is a certain mask-like thing to it - it's very hard to describe. Politeness, but often it's politeness without warmth?
- timr 10y ago
  Yep, I'm familiar with everything you're saying. You definitely don't need language fluency to know that you're being treated differently...just time, and a bit of social awareness. They aren't particularly subtle about it. But in my experience, this is also true of any place where your foreignness is advertised by your skin color or facial structure or height or whatever -- you're just going to be treated like a stranger, because, well, you are one. I've met a fair number of long-term expats now, and there's a group who have taken this personally, and now have a complex about never being "truly accepted"; then there are the ones who have embraced their otherness. Those latter folks are totally aware they're different, and they just decide that they're going to be themselves, but in Japan. They seem to get along quite well. I've met foreigners who run businesses, many who are married, and even a few who are involved in local government, organizing matsuri, and so on. Anyway, I'm not suggesting that it's easy, or that I'm in that latter group. I'm just saying that I've seen it, and it's possible, and that it seems to come most readily when you know and accept where you stand. (Also...for the record, I've heard this exact complaint from expats in every country I've ever visited, including Europe. I was once considering moving to the Netherlands, and I had a dozen lily-white expats telling me that the Dutch are great and friendly and incredibly polite, but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people.)
  - spiderfarmer 10y ago
    > but it's just impossible to make native friends. So it's not just Japanese people This is sort of a "bubble" problem. Dutch people that are "settled" already have a loyal circle of friends and are not always looking to make more friends. There's also the problem that expats usually work in demanding jobs with lots of competition and not a lot free time. It's hard to make friends that way, especially if half of your colleagues are rushing to daycare to pick up their kids. If you were able to move out of that bubble, to a less populous / competitive area, you might find much more laid back people.
merb 10y ago
> ocially isolated expats come here expecting one long manga/anime/kawaii/samurai adventure that will fix their broken lives Well I guess I'm somewhat inside that niche, however I would not expect my broken live to be fixed without any effort. Also before going there, I would probably learn japanese or make holiday there. Well I'm not good at getting friends and I doubt that neither in japan I would make many. I just love their culture and their food (at least some, katsudon <3 and other dishes). I also actually are a big fan of buildins and history, which japan has a lot. I also heard that they have a special work mentality (which you also described). And somehow if my work is good I love it, which makes me like the longer working hours. For me that make's me more happy than actually making friends (I know I'm a wierdo) and somehow I think japan would be a whole new challenge for me. But as already stated I doubt I couldn't be there for more than 6 months to 1 year. I still love my home besides the fact that I live in a small town in Germany which is nothing compared to the SF area or any japanese town. Edit: Great comments from a lot of people, Thanks that makes me actually more engaged to make savings to visit Japan at least once in my life.

agibsonccc 10y ago

I just got my visa for 1 year running a company here. I setup the company to be distributed. I am based in Tokyo. I can say despite not speaking the language it was the best decision I have ever made. Both locals and expats are friendly. If you are going to do business here it is best to have someone on your team who speaks the language though. Another big reason I love it here is how safe it is. After having lived in SF for a few years, there's a lot to be said for that. Re: being difficult. I would disagree. Moving to Japan and dealing with immigration took me 4 months and multiple lawyers. The bureaucracy is real.

dvcrn 10y ago
Are you talking about the normal startup visa here that's valid for 1 year? I wasn't aware that it's this annoying to get. From my understanding, you have to hand in the papers (with a basic business plan), incorporate your company and after a year, proof that you indeed make money. For all other visas you just need a sponsor (company) / proof that you can make money as a freelancer and, well, a university degree. Japan might even be one of the only countries that effectively lets you skip the university degree (and 10 years of work experience) requirement with the right certificate that should be no problem to get if you know your computer science basics
- agibsonccc 10y ago
  I did an intra company transfer with an already existing subsidiary. In our case we are venture funded with a seed round in the millions. The devil here is in the details. We also have a deal with jetro: http://jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/companies-chosen-global-innovation-centers-subsidy-announced.html http://jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/companies-chosen-global-innova... as well as a ton of Japanese PR which helped. Half of our difficulty was actually finding a good law firm that understood how software companies work.