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As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their fro

As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their front legs together BEHIND their back (YES, DISLOCATING THEM), and leave them tied up like that with a tin can over their mouth until they're ready to deal with them. They'll even hold the dogs legs like a "handle" while carrying them around. I've never seen cruelty like it...

Rapzid 10y ago
I'm not really squeamish, and I'm cognisant of the cultural difference but.. I would caution people against image searching for tied up dogs in the context of China unless you're prepared for some pretty shocking stuff.
- mingdingo 10y ago
  I know, but I don't think very many people know this even exists. That's the worst part about this practice -- it's so horrible that it's too horrible to even share. As much as I hate it, I know I can't share pictures of this on Facebook because people will likely hate me more than they hate what's going on.
- vogt 10y ago
  The way that the Chinese treat animals is despicable. We in the US aren't far off, but they take it to another level.
  - mingdingo 10y ago
    Yeah if China became like the (highly imperfect) US it would still be a major win.
icantdrive55 10y ago
That's my limit. The more I learn about China, the more I don't like the country. Yea--bring on the usual political correctness HN. Until these Asian countries start treating animals better, including Japan; I will try to avoid buying their products. (I'm not leaving out Africa, etc., either) I worked at a American national park one summer. There was a group of visiting Chinese Christian Campers in a park cabin. I remember being invited to a dinner party. I went. I was shocked at what I saw. "For dinner we have Stellar Jay soup." There were protected dead animals all over the cabin. I told them they can't do this. They acted like they didn't know our laws. I let it go. I just figured they really don't get it. And yes--they had a ton of store bought food bought by the sponsors. I remember talking to a Chinese pre-med student. He told me the cruelty to animals is commonplace in China. I asked him is it just the poor Chinese? He said no, it's just, "Chinese look at animals as food--period. They have no feelings. They have no rights. He went on to tell me a few stories I can't repeat. That was years ago, but I have had it. I will try to only buy from countries that have some values I can relate to. Yes--it will be difficult. I might fail?
latch 10y ago
They should pass laws, but so should the west. The poultry/egg and fishing industry is unquestionably unethical. And much of the dairy and beef industry would have to improve as well. Again, not trying to say China shouldn't. But am pointing out that it's a bit of throwing a stone in a glass house.
- mingdingo 10y ago
  I totally agree the West needs to improve animal welfare even further. But SOME cruelty laws are better than NONE, which is why I bring up China more. But you're totally right, there's awful stuff going on here, too.
  - lobotryas 10y ago
    Here's an interesting point: do we know that the poultry/fish industries can absorb the cost of "humanely" raiding these animals without collapsing? Assuming the money is there and this law would not kill an industry, how can we ensure that these cost increases are not passed on to the consumer? Living in the US is expensive enough. Would you guarantee "ethical eggs" if the cost was fewer poor people could afford them? I am not happy that we treat poultry and fish the way we do, but if that means keeping those products affordable the I'd take that over increasing the welfare of an animal.
    - mingdingo 10y ago
      At the very least I'd start with the more intelligent animals. Pigs in gestation crates is awful.
    - latch 10y ago
      Why do you want to "ensure that these cost increases are not passed on to the consumer"? Isn't that a major problem already (people not paying the real cost of their food)? I can appreciate the need for cheap protein, but I don't see why it should be addressed in isolation from any other form of social inequality. I see no reason why the government should be subsidizing someone's steak, bacon or fish. Eggs and dairy? Yes, but only for the vulnerable.
victornomad 10y ago
have you ever been in a farm? it sounds really cruel, yes, but thats quite similar to the majority of the meat production... sadly :(
- ralfd 10y ago
  Yes, i have been and have seen or heard anything like that.
ralfd 10y ago
I guess it is cultural? You often also hear animal cruelty stories from their zoos: https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/169fyr/chinese_zoogoers_throw_snowballs_at_lions/c7tzi6r/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/169fyr/chinese_zoogoer...
- neolefty 10y ago
  There is also growing sympathy for animals in China, in my experience, but it's a few generations behind the West. My family just moved back to the US from 5 years there. (1) A story: My two younger daughters, probably 9 and 11 at the time, were on the street in Chengdu near our apartment, and they saw a puppy, probably stray. A granny was out with her toddler grandson, and when they saw the puppy too, the granny brought her grandson over and physically swung his feet at the puppy to kick it. She was teaching him to kick a stray dog. My daughters were shocked that someone would "teach a child to kick dogs". (2) China is still very much recovering from PTSD as a nation, from the events of the 60s and 70s. It will take another couple generations for the panic over survival to fully recede, I imagine. Animal rights are a luxury compared to survival (in people's minds). (3) Change comes extremely fast in China -- people are very connected and can collectively shift their opinions and outlook in a heartbeat, when they're ready, thanks in part to WeChat, and in part to culture, which inculcates rapid adaptability to changing conditions. (4) On the other hand, China is still 40-50% rural, where animals are livestock and not pets. That will likely not change as long as people eat meat! (Or at least change very slowly -- see US meat industry for example.)

Rapzid 10y ago

I'm not really squeamish, and I'm cognisant of the cultural difference but.. I would caution people against image searching for tied up dogs in the context of China unless you're prepared for some pretty shocking stuff.

mingdingo 10y ago
I know, but I don't think very many people know this even exists. That's the worst part about this practice -- it's so horrible that it's too horrible to even share. As much as I hate it, I know I can't share pictures of this on Facebook because people will likely hate me more than they hate what's going on.
vogt 10y ago
The way that the Chinese treat animals is despicable. We in the US aren't far off, but they take it to another level.
- mingdingo 10y ago
  Yeah if China became like the (highly imperfect) US it would still be a major win.

icantdrive55 10y ago

That's my limit. The more I learn about China, the more I don't like the country. Yea--bring on the usual political correctness HN. Until these Asian countries start treating animals better, including Japan; I will try to avoid buying their products. (I'm not leaving out Africa, etc., either) I worked at a American national park one summer. There was a group of visiting Chinese Christian Campers in a park cabin. I remember being invited to a dinner party. I went. I was shocked at what I saw. "For dinner we have Stellar Jay soup." There were protected dead animals all over the cabin. I told them they can't do this. They acted like they didn't know our laws. I let it go. I just figured they really don't get it. And yes--they had a ton of store bought food bought by the sponsors. I remember talking to a Chinese pre-med student. He told me the cruelty to animals is commonplace in China. I asked him is it just the poor Chinese? He said no, it's just, "Chinese look at animals as food--period. They have no feelings. They have no rights. He went on to tell me a few stories I can't repeat. That was years ago, but I have had it. I will try to only buy from countries that have some values I can relate to. Yes--it will be difficult. I might fail?

latch 10y ago

They should pass laws, but so should the west. The poultry/egg and fishing industry is unquestionably unethical. And much of the dairy and beef industry would have to improve as well. Again, not trying to say China shouldn't. But am pointing out that it's a bit of throwing a stone in a glass house.

mingdingo 10y ago
I totally agree the West needs to improve animal welfare even further. But SOME cruelty laws are better than NONE, which is why I bring up China more. But you're totally right, there's awful stuff going on here, too.
- lobotryas 10y ago
  Here's an interesting point: do we know that the poultry/fish industries can absorb the cost of "humanely" raiding these animals without collapsing? Assuming the money is there and this law would not kill an industry, how can we ensure that these cost increases are not passed on to the consumer? Living in the US is expensive enough. Would you guarantee "ethical eggs" if the cost was fewer poor people could afford them? I am not happy that we treat poultry and fish the way we do, but if that means keeping those products affordable the I'd take that over increasing the welfare of an animal.
  - mingdingo 10y ago
    At the very least I'd start with the more intelligent animals. Pigs in gestation crates is awful.
  - latch 10y ago
    Why do you want to "ensure that these cost increases are not passed on to the consumer"? Isn't that a major problem already (people not paying the real cost of their food)? I can appreciate the need for cheap protein, but I don't see why it should be addressed in isolation from any other form of social inequality. I see no reason why the government should be subsidizing someone's steak, bacon or fish. Eggs and dairy? Yes, but only for the vulnerable.

victornomad 10y ago

have you ever been in a farm? it sounds really cruel, yes, but thats quite similar to the majority of the meat production... sadly :(

ralfd 10y ago
Yes, i have been and have seen or heard anything like that.

ralfd 10y ago

I guess it is cultural? You often also hear animal cruelty stories from their zoos: https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/169fyr/chinese_zoogoers_throw_snowballs_at_lions/c7tzi6r/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/169fyr/chinese_zoogoer...

neolefty 10y ago
There is also growing sympathy for animals in China, in my experience, but it's a few generations behind the West. My family just moved back to the US from 5 years there. (1) A story: My two younger daughters, probably 9 and 11 at the time, were on the street in Chengdu near our apartment, and they saw a puppy, probably stray. A granny was out with her toddler grandson, and when they saw the puppy too, the granny brought her grandson over and physically swung his feet at the puppy to kick it. She was teaching him to kick a stray dog. My daughters were shocked that someone would "teach a child to kick dogs". (2) China is still very much recovering from PTSD as a nation, from the events of the 60s and 70s. It will take another couple generations for the panic over survival to fully recede, I imagine. Animal rights are a luxury compared to survival (in people's minds). (3) Change comes extremely fast in China -- people are very connected and can collectively shift their opinions and outlook in a heartbeat, when they're ready, thanks in part to WeChat, and in part to culture, which inculcates rapid adaptability to changing conditions. (4) On the other hand, China is still 40-50% rural, where animals are livestock and not pets. That will likely not change as long as people eat meat! (Or at least change very slowly -- see US meat industry for example.)