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Carmakers Are Learning Japan’s Tech Talent Doesn’t Come Cheap
- eliben 10y agoThis should be filed for safekeeping... you know, for the next time a journalist laments how grossly overpaid programmers are.
- noobermin 10y ago>The development cycle for a car usually last years, which can be frustrating for programmers used to building a system in weeks, said Mandali Khalesi, Asia-Pacific chief of Netherlands-based digital map-maker HERE, owned by German automakers Audi AG, BMW AG and Daimler AG. “These people are from complete IT backgrounds and they don’t expect these long-time cycles,” he said in an interview in Tokyo. Do these hackers no longer exist in the US? Or is everyone a hipster rubyist today?
- micaksica 10y ago> Do these hackers no longer exist in the US? Or is everyone a hipster rubyist today? Oh, they exist. It's just the proportion of programmers these days skew heavily toward web devs and "hipster rubyists" than it used to. There are still a lot of low-level guys and people with experience with these waterfall models. However, as "self driving cars" become the rage with a lot of the public, more hipster rubyist types will want to jump ship to this rage from their last and will apply expecting the same culture to prevail.
- laichzeit0 10y agoI'm afraid the "hipster rubyists" have little to contribute towards the self driving cars field. You need an actual degree, if not a masters or doctorate to play. That's why there's a shortage. I don't think these auto-makers are talking about the type of skills you can pick up in a few weekends of watching Code School videos or trying to teach yourself machine learning without a formal education in mathematics/statistics. This is not easy stuff.
- nitrogen 10y agoGive me a stack of textbooks, a list of open problems to study, and a six month supply of caffeine.
- santaclaus 10y ago> You need an actual degree, if not a masters or doctorate to play. The most highly cited CS researcher that I've worked with has an undergraduate degree in music and no graduate level formal training... smarts, focus, and a keen eye can get one pretty far.
- derivagral 10y agoPart of the focus on degree is similar to a business adage: "Nobody gets fired for buying IBM." In a similar way, if something goes wrong or doesn't pan out over the longer cycles, "Nobody gets fired for hiring a PHD."
- vonmoltke 10y ago> You need an actual degree, if not a masters or doctorate to play. That's why there's a shortage. That's part of why there is a shortage. The other part is that the companies in the industry either have standards that are too high (must have years of recent experience in their particular laundry list) or don't know what they are actually looking for. I have the degree, I have years of real-time sensor experience, but nobody will talk to me because I have been doing NLP for the past four years.
- white-flame 10y agoOverall, degrees don't mean anything to this sort of education anymore, especially in computing. Everybody in industry bemoans that people are graduating without skills, knowledge, or formal thought processes. Universities have dropped the ball in the last few decades as they've been turned to profit centers, taking advantage of an increasingly externally funded captive audience who requires degrees. But while employers have some realization of this situation, they're still stuck on degrees being meaningful. I agree these skills aren't easy stuff, and the best place to pick it up is university. But going through university doesn't mean someone actually gained these skills. And being without a degree doesn't mean someone is without the skills. It's become orthogonal.
- lacampbell 10y agoI think the whole thing with webdev is that the barrier to entry for starting your own little company or SaaS or even being a contractor is much lower. Not many bootstrapped embedded programming startups - if you're doing low level stuff you seem to always be working for medium to large companies.
- noobermin 10y agoSo I don't do work with low-level stuff (computational physicist here, so different low-level), but I was of the impression things like the Arduino and Raspberry Pi and all these open source maker tools have significantly lowered the barrier too, if not at least the overhead.
- lacampbell 10y agoAre people making enough money to quit their day jobs doing stuff for the Arduino and Raspberry? My impression was that it's all hobbyist. If there are, please someone let me know.
- di4na 10y agoThere is a market for stuff like that that integrate into tools, especially for factories. But it needs more integration and investment, and it needs to be able to sale to big entreprisey world, where you compete with IBM, Cisco and co. But there is definitely something to do to instrument factories and lines.
- dsp1234 10y agoIt's definitely easier to get into embedded programming. But blinking a light, or monitoring the air pressure around you isn't going to pay the bills as easily. Compare that to making a simple web application or extension, and signing up for adwords. Almost all programming is easier now than when I was growing up (regardless of area), but that doesn't mean that those areas have all had the same level of growth in terms of actual proficient programmers. ex: Compare the ease of creating the site at the top of the google search for "subnet calculator", and how much it makes in ad driven traffic vs what you would have to do to monetize even the simplest embedded project.
- Spooky23 10y agoMany have been kicked out of the industry and off-shored or attrited away. Banks, Fortune 100 and government had lots of these folks 15 years ago.
- trowawee 10y agoIt's not the case that no one is like that (and honestly, most of your so-called "hipster rubyists" aren't like that either). This is just an excuse put up by companies that want people to eat a 55% pay cut to work there. Like most critiques of "the next generation", it's bullshit.
- 20years 10y agoThose hipster rubyist make more money so maybe some of those hackers went that route. Can't blame them.
- parennoob 10y agoTake anything people with titles like "Asia-Pacific chief" say with a lot of grains of salt. They are used to making sweeping generalizations that only reflect their own view of something and often has little to do with reality or statistics. You can easily find people who will work in dev cycles of years if you give them a $250k+, a good private office, and perks that are usually seen in so-called "Hipster Rubyist" shops like flexible timings. The problem is that companies with a dev cycle of years tend to also expect their programmers to swipe in a time card every day, sit at a shitty desk with a shitty chair, and drink Folgers coffee. Then their "chief" whines saying "We can't find any programmers!".
- ChuckMcM 10y agoVery funny quote: “You’ve got some engineers making 20 million yen ($170,000) a year. Then you try to fit them in the traditional manufacturer-based salary structure where it should be 7 to 9 million yen.” Clearly they don't understand the market, if the other parts of the market are paying 20Million Yen for this position then that is where it "should be" and you have to figure out how to cover that cost. I get really tired of companies saying "Talent Shortage" when they really mean "I don't want to pay that much."
- elastic_church 10y ago"Tech" companies treat their engineers as investments Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC treats their engineers as expenses this isn't relevant to just salaries, but to the tools available and requested, to the blanket IT policies
- micaksica 10y ago> Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC treats their engineers as expenses Mister Business can go without engineers, then. You'd think he'd let his own biases not get in the way of how a market actually works. It's not just MBAs that act this way. A lot of engineers believe that their rockstar skillset is the only one that runs a company, and therefore only they should be compensated at some "elite" status.
- WaxProlix 10y agoMight just be another instance of everyone living at the center of their own universe - their skillset is the most valuable, their viewpoint the most legitimate, etc. While I do love me a good anti-MBA circlejerk from time to time, this is probably not the best target. If Mr Business didn't try to optimize and pay his engineers as little as possible, for instance, The Market would be broken in another way.
- raverbashing 10y agoOf course But the engineer who put up with Mr. Business crap are not the brightest ones usually. And to be fair they probably won't care to correct when Mr. Business wants to do something stupid (or just don't know this is the case). Or even if they do care Mr. B knows better right? Because he's the boss Then Mr B goes out of business because his product sucks, or "gets hacked".
- GVIrish 10y agoBloomberg's article title is really confusing here. It should say "Japanese Carmakers are Learning Tech Talent Doesn't Come Cheap". It's not at all surprising and is part of Japan's overall difficulty in attracting foreign IT talent or cultivating it locally. Professional work culture and benefits packages will have to change if they're going to catch up in the IT sector in the future. I think the automotive industry is going to develop a lot the way the smartphone industry has in that software is going to become a much bigger component of the value proposition of the product. You can build an excellent car but if you don't have good connectivity, smart features, driver assist technologies, and slick user interfaces you're going to get blown off the road by the companies that get it right.
- antisthenes 10y agoLooks like the title is wrong or something got lost in translation. It should, in fact, be "Japan's Carmakers Are Learning Tech Talent Doesn't Come Cheap"
- joeframbach 10y agoAbout half the IT professionals in Japan have never changed jobs, compared with 14 percent in the U.S. and 21 percent in China, according to the METI survey. “We cannot afford to have people that only come here for a year or two,” said Redzic Translation: About half the IT professionals in Japan have never learned anything new outside of their office, compared with 14 percent in the U.S. and 21 percent in China, according to the METI survey. “We cannot afford to have people that have wide ranges of experience,” said Redzic
- geon 10y agoNo wonder they (allegedly) have difficulties adopting best practices such as version control.
- joelby37 10y agoFrom personal experience (other workplaces may have different policies), I can see why people in Japan would not change jobs very often. A large proportion of your salary can be in the form of performance bonuses, which you technically aren't eligible for when you first start. This means that you can take a huge pay cut for the first 12 months because you might only receive a token bonus.
- rb808 10y agoOur Tokyo office is really difficult to staff. Remembering the whole job for life culture - you just can't hire experienced people you have to hire graduates and then train them up. So if you want someone with 10 years experience you have to have hired someone 10 years ago. Of course you can't fire them if you decide you didn't need so many. So we hire many foreigners which aren't easy to come by either, and do most dev work elsewhere.
- kogepathic 10y agoWhat's the process for hiring foreigners? I'd love to live and work in Japan but basically every job ad I've seen online wants people who speak Japanese and are already in Japan. Bit of a catch 22...
- rb808 10y agoI think its probably the same for any large corporation. I'd check with banks, insurance companies, even Japanese manufacturers where you can start with a job in the US with the view to move.
- kogepathic 10y agoWhat about people who don't live in the US? Not aware of many European multinationals with a big footprint in Japan who are keen to ship over staff.
- jpatokal 10y agoGoogle Japan hires from all over the world and will sponsor visas if you get an offer. Obviously the office is focused on the Japanese market, so roles that don't require fluent Japanese are quite limited, but there's a sizable software engineering team that explicitly does not require it: https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-engineer-university-graduate-minato-tokyo-japan-1988770623& https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e... https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-engineer-chrome-os-video-minato-tokyo-japan-1991420014& https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e... But as in any company, the best way to get posted overseas is to get in locally first and then apply for positions internally.
- Matthias247 10y agoThat's not a japanese phenomen. In the german automotive industry it's the same thing - and it's one of the reasons I left one of the big german OEMs. Salaries are very fixed at those companies. You will start at around 50k€ after university, advance to 70-80€ during the next years and will be basically stuck there. The corporations have defined fixed salary levels together with the unions and these don't contain any "super-complex", "in-demand" or "rockstar" levels. It doesn't even matter whether you are doing mechanical engineering, software, or powerpoint engineering. There exist higher salaries, but only for team leads and above - which mostly don't perform technical work anymore.
- mrdmnd 10y agoI love the phrase "powerpoint engineering" and I think I'm going to use it in my daily speech patterns now.
- vonmoltke 10y agoSounds like the US defense industry.
- user5994461 10y agoI thought people were doing defence work as contractors now, which is decently paid, as all contracting work. Anyway, defence should be reasonable hours without week end works and on call. Not comparable to the average bro-grammer company.
- vonmoltke 10y ago> I thought people were doing defence work as contractors now, which is decently paid, as all contracting work. "Contractor" does not mean the individuals doing the work are 1099 contractors. It means the work is done through government contracts to private companies. There is serious cost pressure on those contracts and the people actually doing the work are generally making below market compensation. > Anyway, defence should be reasonable hours without week end works and on call. Not comparable to the average bro-grammer company. If only. Sure, you can skate by doing that if you don't mind wallowing in a boring role with 3% (if you are lucky) annual raises. If you want any sort of decent career progression you'll be doing 50+ a week and doing whatever needs to be done to hit the often unrealistic delivery targets.
- laurieg 10y agoI'm not a very experienced engineer, but I did go to a world class school and have worked for a few years. I have been job hunting in Japan and recently received an offer from a large web company in Japan. They were offering less than 30k usd, and would not negotiate at all. I have no incentive to do a full time job when I can make the same with half the hours.
- rememberlenny 10y agoYou could make the same in two weeks.
- laurieg 10y agoI have to say, with the best will in the world, I don't believe you. I don't believe that someone is paying $15000 a week for some basic software development.
- jboggan 10y agoAfter perusing his Twitter I'd say he has escaped basic software development.
- up_and_up 10y agoIf you charge $150/hr and work a 2 week blitz for 100 hours/week. It's possible.
- user5994461 10y agoFactor in the full week, including week end at extra fees, the perks costs, the insurance, the office, the pension. A 5 figure sum seems perfectly reasonable! However, it's not take-home pay and it's not for basic development.
- lisivka 10y ago$1500 per hour? It's looks impossible for a developer, unless he is doing a business.
- jstewartmobile 10y agoWhere to work is a very multidimensional question, but all of the talk (HR, execs, managers, and even potential employees) proxies it into dollars and cents. I know people who went to Google and came screaming back feeling that they had Stepford-wifed their youth away. I know other smart people working for libraries and universities for a fraction of what they could make just for the tranquility of it. If you're young and have no responsibilities, don't get too hung-up on the money. Just go out there and try some shit. You never know what's going to be a good fit, although it's usually pretty easy to spot what's going to be a bad one.
- raverbashing 10y ago> don't get too hung-up on the money Correct. Not on money, but also not on name ("I have to work for one of the big 4")
- jstewartmobile 10y agoGreat point! I'm tempted to go back and add "not getting too hung-up on the vanity of companies and titles" and giving you credit for it, but that would probably be asking too much. :-)
- droopyEyelids 10y agoI wanted to say "perhaps you're suffering from brain damage" but you appear to be enjoying (not suffering from) it!
- brian-armstrong 10y agoThis is not an appropriate comment for Hackernews https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- droopyEyelids 10y agoSorry about that.
- dang 10y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13280239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13280239 and marked it off-topic.
- mSparks 10y agoplease take your life somewhere else.
- dsfyu404ed 10y agoBullshit. You bought the fancy one because the model with all the features was on the lot and you would rather talk down the price on that than pay sticker on an order of a bare bones model.
- dang 10y agoWe've had to warn you before about being uncivil on Hacker News. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13281179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13281179 and marked it off-topic.
- sangnoir 10y agoI do hope some Japanese auto companies get self-driven going. Having been peripherally involved with a couple of Japanese software projects,I would appreciate their rigorous approach as a customer. Unfortunately I found the same trait stressful and overly nit-picky as a foreign engineer - I'll freely admit it was the best QA I've witnessed in my life by report quality, thoroughness and turnaround times. I got the impression that they do not move fast and break things. I don't know how well SV folk will adapt in such environments.