5 ms·

Wrong. The average of all lives is getting better. I think people feel disgruntled because life in the upper end is not improving. Its all good and nice that hu

by return0 10y ago

Wrong. The average of all lives is getting better. I think people feel disgruntled because life in the upper end is not improving. Its all good and nice that humanity is dragging its tail forward, but that kinda happens by default, all the time, even without effort. Somehow people feel that the head is not moving forward fast enough , though. We want our flying cars!

stephancoral 10y ago
> Its all good and nice that humanity is dragging its tail forward, but that kinda happens by default, all the time, even without effort. No, it doesn't. This isn't some intrinsic element of humanity, positive societal change requires dedicated effort, will, and resources. Your point about flying cars is a joke right?Flying cars would kill thousands more and be a huge liability. Maybe the problem in the developed world isn't that things aren't growing or improving, but that people don't appreciate the standard of living they have.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  I think there are two big things contributing to the lack of appreciation of the living standard: - anything you experience daily becomes a baseline, so people keep complaining about relative differences within their wealth bracket instead of comparing to less wealthy societies - a typical person in the West doesn't have that much time to enjoy their standard of living, having to slave away 10-12 hours a day (commute included), being burdened with mortgage and possibly other credits, and being one workplace fuckup from serious economic trouble...
  - kudokatz 10y ago
    > having to slave away 10-12 hours a day Well, part of that is a choice to consume at a rate that requires such work. It's somewhat easy to have a nice financial position by delaying kids and not pouring money into cars and shopping ... but not many people choose that lifestyle. The FIRE community is all about the alternatives.
    - CaptSpify 10y ago
      FIRE community?
      - kudokatz 10y ago
        Financial Independence Retire Early Everybody in the community has a different view of things, but for many "retire early" simply means "work on what you want to" rather than "bum around the beach all day for the rest of your life". There are large subsections that focus on travel, giving up office jobs for being outdoors, and those that are truly much too frugal for my personal tastes.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      You can't live in a van in an area as wintry as mine. A somewhat low standard of living is acceptable, but people need security.
      - kudokatz 10y ago
        I feel this argument is taking things to extremes. There are many intermediate states between living in a vehicle without heat and insisting on eating out, buying nice things, having vacations, expensive phones and plans, etc.
        eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        I dunno. I can easily give up on ever eating out, buying new things (I rarely do anyway, other than books), going on vacations (I only get a couple of weeks' vacation every year anyway), or purchasing new phones for un-cheap prices (I already keep mine until it breaks each time). Those are actually pretty negligible expenses. If I really want to speed up the trip towards financial independence, I have to reduce my housing and health-insurance premiums. That's the only place the money can really come from to invest more than I already do.
        antisthenes 10y ago
        Do you ever get tired of pushing the trope of "expensive phones and 4k TVs and eating out" ? I'm just curious. Because the necessities have been going up at a far faster pace than the digital pseudo-luxuries. Just as an example, my projected health care costs for 2017 went up by an amount that is larger than a nice phone + eating out every other week combined. That's just the increase, with no appreciable benefit to me in the services provided. I'm sure many people could provide similar examples with rent or other necessary services.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- return0 10y ago
  - Political effort may accelerate it (as in the case of china), but barring war or disease, people with sufficient resources will just copy technology and improve their lives. And even large dedicated effort may be only partially successful, as in Africa [1,2,3]. - I was joking about flying cars but i don't understand your objection to them. Cars are a lot more dangerous; i 've never seen 2 birds collide. - It's a good thing that people "don't appreciate" that what they have is all they could have; that's what generally drives things forward. 1. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cnalp3t9UeS1QEfNt--ZG6ATQiJzRJEMROfD-K2dHRK3apao2ri68pwFf6s_LbOsV-gDCCX7XPhVU9V1T5xAPTSXgAIBw9Qcl5UXfgwFTpSl0qnS1Mrfv1ujL1ykeSGpwa9cGg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cnalp3t9UeS1QEfNt--ZG6ATQ... 2. http://lh4.ggpht.com/fhuebler/SCW62SGJMiI/AAAAAAAAAU4/nIiCXaSvbfE/s800/20080510-lit.png http://lh4.ggpht.com/fhuebler/SCW62SGJMiI/AAAAAAAAAU4/nIiCXa... 3. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Life_expectancy_in_select_Southern_African_countries%2C_1960_to_2002.svg/800px-Life_expectancy_in_select_Southern_African_countries%2C_1960_to_2002.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Li...
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    > i 've never seen 2 birds collide. Just to nitpick, this is how birds of prey hunt :)
- bogomipz 10y ago
  > "Maybe the problem in the developed world isn't that things aren't growing or improving, but that people don't appreciate the standard of living they have." You can appreciate what you have and still be cognizant of all the problems affecting you and your surroundings. They aren't mutually exclusive. Improvement and change often bring new or novel sets of problems or may have unintended consequences. I don't believe that enumerating those should necessarily imply ingratitude. That's a slippery slope.
ommunist 10y ago
If you have a fried chicken and some guy in Indonesia does not, on average you have half a chicken. If you have a roasted turkey, and that guy in Indonesia does not, life on average just became a whole lot better for both of you, right?
- return0 10y ago
  Let me rephrase that somehow. If you have a remedy that fixes the symptoms but not real cure for cancer, and the guy in indonesia does not, on average you have half a remedy. If you have a cure for cancer and the guy in indonesia does not, life on average is a whole lot better because the guy in indonesia can hope to get the cure himself in a few years.
- ctdonath 10y ago
  Strictly speaking true, but wantonly missing the point. We're at a world economic point where it is literally cheaper to send chickens from USA to China, process them there, and send the product back to USA than to process them near the originating farm. It's not that hard (with suitable supply chain management, and accounting for economy of scale) to just send that half of my chicken to some guy in Indonesia.
  - ommunist 10y ago
    You just stressed my point. In your described scheme the poor guy in Indonesia still got no chicken.
xj9 10y ago
we have flying cars already[1][2], but they aren't cheap. these cost around $700k. [1]: http://cessna.txtav.com/en/piston/cessna-ttx http://cessna.txtav.com/en/piston/cessna-ttx [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_400 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_400
api 10y ago
Forget flying cars. If you ignore gadgets, things have gotten worse for the working and middle classes of most developed nations in the past 30 years. Wages are stagnant yet housing and other essential costs have exploded... largely due to asset price inflation driven by financial attempts to reinflate. The problem is that without wage inflation QE only makes housing more expensive. People in the developed world would be happier with what they had 30 years ago: stable jobs, pensions, a house, infrastructure that is not crumbling.
- dv_dt 10y ago
  Exactly! The average may be improving but for too many in the middle class in the US, progress has reversed. Work and earnings opportunity has been reduced, and the millennial generation onwards does not seem to have it better then the generation before.
  - api 10y ago
    The best description of what's happening that I've heard is "in-deflation." That's inflation in everything you need (housing, health care, education, etc.) and deflation in everything else including wages. It's basically a result of QE in a very soft labor market.
  - return0 10y ago
    Elegantly summarized by the elephant chart https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-27/get-ready-to-see-this-globalization-elephant-chart-over-and-over-again https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-27/get-ready...
taormina 10y ago
We decided to call those "helicopters".

by return0 10y ago

stephancoral 10y ago

> Its all good and nice that humanity is dragging its tail forward, but that kinda happens by default, all the time, even without effort. No, it doesn't. This isn't some intrinsic element of humanity, positive societal change requires dedicated effort, will, and resources. Your point about flying cars is a joke right?Flying cars would kill thousands more and be a huge liability. Maybe the problem in the developed world isn't that things aren't growing or improving, but that people don't appreciate the standard of living they have.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
I think there are two big things contributing to the lack of appreciation of the living standard: - anything you experience daily becomes a baseline, so people keep complaining about relative differences within their wealth bracket instead of comparing to less wealthy societies - a typical person in the West doesn't have that much time to enjoy their standard of living, having to slave away 10-12 hours a day (commute included), being burdened with mortgage and possibly other credits, and being one workplace fuckup from serious economic trouble...
- kudokatz 10y ago
  > having to slave away 10-12 hours a day Well, part of that is a choice to consume at a rate that requires such work. It's somewhat easy to have a nice financial position by delaying kids and not pouring money into cars and shopping ... but not many people choose that lifestyle. The FIRE community is all about the alternatives.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    FIRE community?
    - kudokatz 10y ago
      Financial Independence Retire Early Everybody in the community has a different view of things, but for many "retire early" simply means "work on what you want to" rather than "bum around the beach all day for the rest of your life". There are large subsections that focus on travel, giving up office jobs for being outdoors, and those that are truly much too frugal for my personal tastes.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    You can't live in a van in an area as wintry as mine. A somewhat low standard of living is acceptable, but people need security.
    - kudokatz 10y ago
      I feel this argument is taking things to extremes. There are many intermediate states between living in a vehicle without heat and insisting on eating out, buying nice things, having vacations, expensive phones and plans, etc.
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        I dunno. I can easily give up on ever eating out, buying new things (I rarely do anyway, other than books), going on vacations (I only get a couple of weeks' vacation every year anyway), or purchasing new phones for un-cheap prices (I already keep mine until it breaks each time). Those are actually pretty negligible expenses. If I really want to speed up the trip towards financial independence, I have to reduce my housing and health-insurance premiums. That's the only place the money can really come from to invest more than I already do.
      - antisthenes 10y ago
        Do you ever get tired of pushing the trope of "expensive phones and 4k TVs and eating out" ? I'm just curious. Because the necessities have been going up at a far faster pace than the digital pseudo-luxuries. Just as an example, my projected health care costs for 2017 went up by an amount that is larger than a nice phone + eating out every other week combined. That's just the increase, with no appreciable benefit to me in the services provided. I'm sure many people could provide similar examples with rent or other necessary services.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
return0 10y ago
- Political effort may accelerate it (as in the case of china), but barring war or disease, people with sufficient resources will just copy technology and improve their lives. And even large dedicated effort may be only partially successful, as in Africa [1,2,3]. - I was joking about flying cars but i don't understand your objection to them. Cars are a lot more dangerous; i 've never seen 2 birds collide. - It's a good thing that people "don't appreciate" that what they have is all they could have; that's what generally drives things forward. 1. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cnalp3t9UeS1QEfNt--ZG6ATQiJzRJEMROfD-K2dHRK3apao2ri68pwFf6s_LbOsV-gDCCX7XPhVU9V1T5xAPTSXgAIBw9Qcl5UXfgwFTpSl0qnS1Mrfv1ujL1ykeSGpwa9cGg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cnalp3t9UeS1QEfNt--ZG6ATQ... 2. http://lh4.ggpht.com/fhuebler/SCW62SGJMiI/AAAAAAAAAU4/nIiCXaSvbfE/s800/20080510-lit.png http://lh4.ggpht.com/fhuebler/SCW62SGJMiI/AAAAAAAAAU4/nIiCXa... 3. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Life_expectancy_in_select_Southern_African_countries%2C_1960_to_2002.svg/800px-Life_expectancy_in_select_Southern_African_countries%2C_1960_to_2002.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Li...
- antisthenes 10y ago
  > i 've never seen 2 birds collide. Just to nitpick, this is how birds of prey hunt :)
bogomipz 10y ago
> "Maybe the problem in the developed world isn't that things aren't growing or improving, but that people don't appreciate the standard of living they have." You can appreciate what you have and still be cognizant of all the problems affecting you and your surroundings. They aren't mutually exclusive. Improvement and change often bring new or novel sets of problems or may have unintended consequences. I don't believe that enumerating those should necessarily imply ingratitude. That's a slippery slope.

ommunist 10y ago

If you have a fried chicken and some guy in Indonesia does not, on average you have half a chicken. If you have a roasted turkey, and that guy in Indonesia does not, life on average just became a whole lot better for both of you, right?

return0 10y ago
Let me rephrase that somehow. If you have a remedy that fixes the symptoms but not real cure for cancer, and the guy in indonesia does not, on average you have half a remedy. If you have a cure for cancer and the guy in indonesia does not, life on average is a whole lot better because the guy in indonesia can hope to get the cure himself in a few years.
ctdonath 10y ago
Strictly speaking true, but wantonly missing the point. We're at a world economic point where it is literally cheaper to send chickens from USA to China, process them there, and send the product back to USA than to process them near the originating farm. It's not that hard (with suitable supply chain management, and accounting for economy of scale) to just send that half of my chicken to some guy in Indonesia.
- ommunist 10y ago
  You just stressed my point. In your described scheme the poor guy in Indonesia still got no chicken.

xj9 10y ago

we have flying cars already[1][2], but they aren't cheap. these cost around $700k. [1]: http://cessna.txtav.com/en/piston/cessna-ttx http://cessna.txtav.com/en/piston/cessna-ttx [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_400 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_400

api 10y ago

Forget flying cars. If you ignore gadgets, things have gotten worse for the working and middle classes of most developed nations in the past 30 years. Wages are stagnant yet housing and other essential costs have exploded... largely due to asset price inflation driven by financial attempts to reinflate. The problem is that without wage inflation QE only makes housing more expensive. People in the developed world would be happier with what they had 30 years ago: stable jobs, pensions, a house, infrastructure that is not crumbling.

dv_dt 10y ago
Exactly! The average may be improving but for too many in the middle class in the US, progress has reversed. Work and earnings opportunity has been reduced, and the millennial generation onwards does not seem to have it better then the generation before.
- api 10y ago
  The best description of what's happening that I've heard is "in-deflation." That's inflation in everything you need (housing, health care, education, etc.) and deflation in everything else including wages. It's basically a result of QE in a very soft labor market.
- return0 10y ago
  Elegantly summarized by the elephant chart https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-27/get-ready-to-see-this-globalization-elephant-chart-over-and-over-again https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-27/get-ready...

taormina 10y ago

We decided to call those "helicopters".