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TL;DR there are a lot of incompetent developers out there. This isn't a comment about the author, as much as it's about something she said. "Today you can tak

TL;DR there are a lot of incompetent developers out there. This isn't a comment about the author, as much as it's about something she said. "Today you can take a lot of programming and Computer Sciences courses online. Everyone can be developer! There are also a lot of developer bootcamps: within 8–12 weeks you can become a developer." This is a very dangerous line of thinking. Some people have convinced themselves that they are competent developers because they went to a bootcamp. And they might have just enough domain knowledge to convince a company with poor hiring practices that they're worth hiring. I inherited a situation like that (this dev was hired a few weeks before me). After a few weeks it was painfully obvious that this guy was a detriment to the company because of his lack of coding ability. For reasons above my paygrade, we couldn't fire him immediately, and eventually we took all responsibilities away from him. We paid someone to come in and not do work for us. I've interviewed dozens of developers since then. The one's coming from a bootcamp (or similar situation) have no computer science skills. They also have no problem solving skills; they're unable to break through the box that they were taught in. Most companies can't afford to hire a developer who knows one thing, and one thing only. Now, we've had 4 year university graduates with experience in the field come in from top schools with degrees in CS. A (scarily) large percentage of them are incompetent as well, though not to the degree of the bootcampers. They're typically serviceable though.

dimino 10y ago
I've said this before, but Python is dangerous in this way. You can learn how to write an executable Python script in a few hours, which if you do this for a few years, you might be convinced you're "fluent" in Python, when in reality you know nothing about how to build and deliver quality software.
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  I see where you're coming from, but in practice I've been a Python developer for a decade and have never encountered this.
  - dimino 10y ago
    You can even see it in Python standard libraries, just look at argparse vs. click. click is a modern Python library. argparse is not.
- type0 10y ago
  Sound like Java also. Python is fairly easy to at least learn the basics of how its cogs are spinning. I'm not saying it can't happen in Python but to me it seems that it happens more often in Java community.
  - dimino 10y ago
    That's completely backwards, Python bills itself as the "scripting" language, whereas Java has a reputation for enterprise, and also has... more static typing and more general verbosity.
jrm2k6 10y ago
This is exactly how I reacted when reading that line. Everybody can become a developer, yes. Everybody can become a good developer quickly, most likely not, and that applies also to people coming out with a formal education in CS, not only bootcampers. I don't understand fully why so many people think that about coding, but not about other fields, like cooking/building/who knows.
- disgruntledphd2 10y ago
  Money.
  - jrm2k6 10y ago
    Could explain it. I think also easy access to information/tutorials/affordability for self-learning?
    - lbotos 10y ago
      People have just as much access via youtube for cooking tutorials but people are _not_ flocking to be chefs. For the cost of a Macbook you can definitely get a pretty decent kitchen + laptop and also literally feed yourself delicious meals... it's the money that brings people to tech. Full stop. I always tell my friends that I got lucky that my passion also happened to pay well. Because if I wanted to be a chef, the road is much harder to make the same money.
denisenepraunig 10y ago
It is my thought as well on those bootcamps, you lack some important CS skills. But there are different coding jobs out there: I think you could easily create some nice, small websites or WordPress themes afterwards, your own app, small freelance work, things only you maintain, but doing "serious" coding in a team on a bigger project after a few weeks? I don't think so... You'll need a lot of mentorship, maybe an internship... May those nano degrees are a better choice if you add some CS skills on top off it.
throwawasiudy 10y ago
Most, not all, but most of the good developers I've known learned to code when they were teens. CS skills have been discounted endlessly compared to other engineering professions solely because it doesn't cost anything to learn. Other forms of engineering cost a lot of money to learn beyond the knowledge required for the job. That doesn't mean software dev is any easier. And, it's great that CS has such a low barrier to entry, and hopefully open source keeps it that way. Unfortunately the same trait makes it sound like "something anyone could do". Anyone hiring in the industry knows this is not the case. The same trait results in 80% of those calling themselves "developers" being radically incompetent. It's one thing if you're electrical engineer that works daily in Cadence doing LVS and DRC, your license alone could cost 100k a year. Contrast that with someone who's git cloned react-starter and setup a website on AWS. The barrier to entry is so low for comp sci that credentials and accomplishments mean little, and interviews are absolutely brutal as a result. So we get to where we are now. Interviews mean everything because degrees, references, and personal accomplishments mean so little in CS. The interview is your gateway rather than a solid degree program for other engineers. How do we fix it? Making programming less accessible is obviously not the right way. We need a solid accreditation program like longer established professions have. CS is very new relatively (the first programmers are largely still alive, which is astounding). God help you if you go to an unaccredited electrical or mechanical engineering program, but the large majority of CS programs aren't accredited at all. Employers need to know which schools are good beyond the top 20 so they can hire effectively, and engineers need to know the same to decide which program they want to attend. It's going to be a vicious cycle until that happens. Endless "CS programs" that don't teach you anything. Borderline scam bootcamps (some are good, but who?). Shaky employers grilling the hell out of anyone that comes through the doors. It's going to suck for everyone in the space until we have some formal definition of someone thats been properly trained. Take the bar exam for instance; In most states you can take it without any schooling, but only those truly knowledgeable will pass. Someone that passed the bar? A lawyer. Passed your boards? A doctor. Passed CS degree program at school X? Who knows.
- stale2002 10y ago
  The unfortunate thing about what you are saying is that a CS bar exam, or certificate, wouldn't "prove" that you have any worthwhile skills. CS degrees are math degrees. They don't address the needs of the millions of Web Dev jobs out there. I am not a computer scientist. I am a web developer and proud. And any web developer accreditation program needs to address the needs of web development and NOT address the needs of computer science.
shas3 10y ago
I am honestly shocked by the "today" in "today you can take..." I grew up in India. In the 1990s a very common career path for people who didn't major in CS/EE/math/etc. was to attend non-university training in computers and programming. There were these institutes in every neighborhood and I recall at least half a dozen national-chains who'd advertise regularly in the newspapers, etc. There's at least one publicly traded company, NIIT that has been doing this for 30 years now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIIT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIIT I don't know if it was substantially different in the US.
zizzles 10y ago
Explain to me what you think the key differences are between a competent and incompetent programmer; specifically, in terms of particular skillsets.
jon-wood 10y ago
Not everyone needs to be a senior developer on day one. I know I've got plenty of work which isn't making the best use of my skills but still needs doing, so the next hire will probably be a bootcamp graduate who we can slowly train up, and who will find the grunt work interesting while we do. We get the easy stuff done for less, and they get to develop their career, which seems like a pretty good deal to me.
- relics443 10y ago
  I'd be particularly selective. The ability to do grunt work is not indicative of the ability to blossom into a full fledged dev.
voidr 10y ago
It's posted on a what looks to be an feminist blog, I don't think they care too much about quality. I also don't think you much chance, to become a good developer if you are not practicing it at a younger age. It's just like with sports and languages.

dimino 10y ago

I've said this before, but Python is dangerous in this way. You can learn how to write an executable Python script in a few hours, which if you do this for a few years, you might be convinced you're "fluent" in Python, when in reality you know nothing about how to build and deliver quality software.

LyndsySimon 10y ago
I see where you're coming from, but in practice I've been a Python developer for a decade and have never encountered this.
- dimino 10y ago
  You can even see it in Python standard libraries, just look at argparse vs. click. click is a modern Python library. argparse is not.
type0 10y ago
Sound like Java also. Python is fairly easy to at least learn the basics of how its cogs are spinning. I'm not saying it can't happen in Python but to me it seems that it happens more often in Java community.
- dimino 10y ago
  That's completely backwards, Python bills itself as the "scripting" language, whereas Java has a reputation for enterprise, and also has... more static typing and more general verbosity.

jrm2k6 10y ago

This is exactly how I reacted when reading that line. Everybody can become a developer, yes. Everybody can become a good developer quickly, most likely not, and that applies also to people coming out with a formal education in CS, not only bootcampers. I don't understand fully why so many people think that about coding, but not about other fields, like cooking/building/who knows.

disgruntledphd2 10y ago
Money.
- jrm2k6 10y ago
  Could explain it. I think also easy access to information/tutorials/affordability for self-learning?
  - lbotos 10y ago
    People have just as much access via youtube for cooking tutorials but people are _not_ flocking to be chefs. For the cost of a Macbook you can definitely get a pretty decent kitchen + laptop and also literally feed yourself delicious meals... it's the money that brings people to tech. Full stop. I always tell my friends that I got lucky that my passion also happened to pay well. Because if I wanted to be a chef, the road is much harder to make the same money.

denisenepraunig 10y ago

It is my thought as well on those bootcamps, you lack some important CS skills. But there are different coding jobs out there: I think you could easily create some nice, small websites or WordPress themes afterwards, your own app, small freelance work, things only you maintain, but doing "serious" coding in a team on a bigger project after a few weeks? I don't think so... You'll need a lot of mentorship, maybe an internship... May those nano degrees are a better choice if you add some CS skills on top off it.

throwawasiudy 10y ago

Most, not all, but most of the good developers I've known learned to code when they were teens. CS skills have been discounted endlessly compared to other engineering professions solely because it doesn't cost anything to learn. Other forms of engineering cost a lot of money to learn beyond the knowledge required for the job. That doesn't mean software dev is any easier. And, it's great that CS has such a low barrier to entry, and hopefully open source keeps it that way. Unfortunately the same trait makes it sound like "something anyone could do". Anyone hiring in the industry knows this is not the case. The same trait results in 80% of those calling themselves "developers" being radically incompetent. It's one thing if you're electrical engineer that works daily in Cadence doing LVS and DRC, your license alone could cost 100k a year. Contrast that with someone who's git cloned react-starter and setup a website on AWS. The barrier to entry is so low for comp sci that credentials and accomplishments mean little, and interviews are absolutely brutal as a result. So we get to where we are now. Interviews mean everything because degrees, references, and personal accomplishments mean so little in CS. The interview is your gateway rather than a solid degree program for other engineers. How do we fix it? Making programming less accessible is obviously not the right way. We need a solid accreditation program like longer established professions have. CS is very new relatively (the first programmers are largely still alive, which is astounding). God help you if you go to an unaccredited electrical or mechanical engineering program, but the large majority of CS programs aren't accredited at all. Employers need to know which schools are good beyond the top 20 so they can hire effectively, and engineers need to know the same to decide which program they want to attend. It's going to be a vicious cycle until that happens. Endless "CS programs" that don't teach you anything. Borderline scam bootcamps (some are good, but who?). Shaky employers grilling the hell out of anyone that comes through the doors. It's going to suck for everyone in the space until we have some formal definition of someone thats been properly trained. Take the bar exam for instance; In most states you can take it without any schooling, but only those truly knowledgeable will pass. Someone that passed the bar? A lawyer. Passed your boards? A doctor. Passed CS degree program at school X? Who knows.

stale2002 10y ago
The unfortunate thing about what you are saying is that a CS bar exam, or certificate, wouldn't "prove" that you have any worthwhile skills. CS degrees are math degrees. They don't address the needs of the millions of Web Dev jobs out there. I am not a computer scientist. I am a web developer and proud. And any web developer accreditation program needs to address the needs of web development and NOT address the needs of computer science.

shas3 10y ago

I am honestly shocked by the "today" in "today you can take..." I grew up in India. In the 1990s a very common career path for people who didn't major in CS/EE/math/etc. was to attend non-university training in computers and programming. There were these institutes in every neighborhood and I recall at least half a dozen national-chains who'd advertise regularly in the newspapers, etc. There's at least one publicly traded company, NIIT that has been doing this for 30 years now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIIT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIIT I don't know if it was substantially different in the US.

zizzles 10y ago

Explain to me what you think the key differences are between a competent and incompetent programmer; specifically, in terms of particular skillsets.

jon-wood 10y ago

Not everyone needs to be a senior developer on day one. I know I've got plenty of work which isn't making the best use of my skills but still needs doing, so the next hire will probably be a bootcamp graduate who we can slowly train up, and who will find the grunt work interesting while we do. We get the easy stuff done for less, and they get to develop their career, which seems like a pretty good deal to me.

relics443 10y ago
I'd be particularly selective. The ability to do grunt work is not indicative of the ability to blossom into a full fledged dev.

voidr 10y ago

It's posted on a what looks to be an feminist blog, I don't think they care too much about quality. I also don't think you much chance, to become a good developer if you are not practicing it at a younger age. It's just like with sports and languages.