5 ms·

The problem is that facebook does censor things like Wikileaks or nudity. You guys might not fully realize this, but to many Europeans this is extremely proble

by ralfn 10y ago

The problem is that facebook does censor things like Wikileaks or nudity. You guys might not fully realize this, but to many Europeans this is extremely problematic. And unlike local newspapers with an editor that defends their editorial choices, it doesnt participate in our culture. Facebook has no obligation, but neither does Germany to even allow the product on their market. Reddit is in much safer water, because it is open and participates in our culture, rather than just trying to control it. Facebooks problem is that it does editorialize -- communication and interactions from within a culture, outside of that culture.

rudolf0 10y ago
>Facebooks problem is that it does editorialize -- communication and interactions from within a culture, outside of that culture. How does this apply to Facebook posts made by regular users? It's one thing if Facebook's own news feed is peddling fake news, but if regular people choose to post an article on their wall, why is it Facebook's or the government's job to assess the veracity of the article and take it down?
- feketegy 10y ago
  Because Facebook's algorithm decides what appears on each users' news feed, by that, even though it's an algorithm without human intervention, it can be said that filters / censors content. If it wouldn't filter out content and it would just show every bit of content that each user uploads on each of their friends' news feed, it wouldn't be a problem. In Germany if you act as an editor over content (whether it's a script or human) it comes with responsibilities.
  - genofon 10y ago
    Also Reddit algorithm decides what is shown to people. And, beside the fact that you can choose if you want the algorithm ordering or just the normal one, if you scroll down enough your news feed you will see all the post, so it's not actually filtering out content, beside for content that break their T&C
    - manquer 10y ago
      All users logged in or otherwise get the same content within a single subreddit. Users choose what sub reddit they want to see . That is big difference from Facebook choosing for me
dogma1138 10y ago
Is it as problematic as censoring government reports about crime and immigration and using anti-terrorism laws to go after legitimate anti-government protestors? Most European news sources these days are heavily censored to the point of being near propaganda themselves. I would think Germany, Sweden and quite a few other countries would want to take a look at themselves before going after facebook. It seems lately that Germany and the EU as a whole are going after multinational corporations because they see fines as a new revenue source rather than because of due cause.
- manquer 10y ago
  Which government though ? And which anti government protestors ? Anti U.S. is fine when operating in U.S. However anti u.s. when operating globally is not cool. If you editorialze over and above local government regulations then you are a news source just like traditional media
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    What does this has to do with the US? Germany has used anti-terrorism and hate speech laws to go after government critics especially around immigration policy, don't even let me get started on what is going on in places like Sweden. Overall I really don't like where Germany is headed, I don't give 2 fucks about the immigration policy; but I don't like the fact that they've effectively legislated censorship on one hand by fining companies that would not take down posts which contain "illegal speech" (which under that legislation does not actually have to be under violation of current German law, it's enough for the likes of Google or Facebook not to comply to a request to get fined) and now they also seek to fine companies that post "fake". Fake news aren't a problem, every news organization on all sides of the spectrum publishes 1000's of retractions and corrections on a monthly basis this is how news are written today when you have to battle for clicks. The EU funds NGOs all over the world quite a few of them would fall under what you would call propaganda and information warfare, propaganda doesn't have to be a lie or fabricated in fact the most effective propaganda and the one most commonly used is not, it's just selective and tailored to fit a narrative, spreading believable lies is considerably harder than spreading convenient selective truths. I don't see anyone going apeshit in the west about "lies" or well inaccuracies that appear on left wing media from Russian troop build ups that never happened to Israeli soldiers supposedly harvesting organs from Palestinians to near utter fabrications about things like the TTP before and even after most of the articles of the treaty were leaked to pseudo science about GMO's and tons of other garbage. These things happen all the time on daily basis, this isn't something that for some reason plagues the right wing media in the US. The problem is that today news is aggregated, much of the "fake" news we have today has always existed in effect it was and still tabloids and free dailies, it's the same inaccurate to utterly fabricated crap you would always get between the lochness monster and jesus appeared to me on a toast but now it's just on facebook and reddit. This isn't a problem; narrative news isn't a problem what is a problem is echo chambers and pre-selected information; if you want to do something about this "fake news" problem don't go after the tabloids; and don't go after facebook for publishing them, make it so that you and everyone else gets exposed to all news sources rather than a feed of what you want to hear or read - that's our problem. And what scares me the most is that some people are not scared and offended by the fact that their feed is in effect pre-selected based on what they want to consume; in fact they seem to applaud it they are offended when something passes through the filter and they get exposed to something that might not fit their self imposed worldview that gets narrower by the minute. So yes if you get to a point where 100% of your Facebook feed looks like the cutting floor of the Aftonbladet and you get something that might have an opposing view I understand that I can be unsettling; but instead of crying about that I would rather we all shed a tear about the fact that too many people get their news from a personalized self curated and self censored ministry of truth. The NSA isn't 1984; how people consume content on the internet today is, with a good dab of fahrenheit 451 in the mix, I hope we don't get to the part of burning books (again) or at this point what would that look like wiping hard drives or shadowbanning tweets?

by ralfn 10y ago

rudolf0 10y ago

>Facebooks problem is that it does editorialize -- communication and interactions from within a culture, outside of that culture. How does this apply to Facebook posts made by regular users? It's one thing if Facebook's own news feed is peddling fake news, but if regular people choose to post an article on their wall, why is it Facebook's or the government's job to assess the veracity of the article and take it down?

feketegy 10y ago
Because Facebook's algorithm decides what appears on each users' news feed, by that, even though it's an algorithm without human intervention, it can be said that filters / censors content. If it wouldn't filter out content and it would just show every bit of content that each user uploads on each of their friends' news feed, it wouldn't be a problem. In Germany if you act as an editor over content (whether it's a script or human) it comes with responsibilities.
- genofon 10y ago
  Also Reddit algorithm decides what is shown to people. And, beside the fact that you can choose if you want the algorithm ordering or just the normal one, if you scroll down enough your news feed you will see all the post, so it's not actually filtering out content, beside for content that break their T&C
  - manquer 10y ago
    All users logged in or otherwise get the same content within a single subreddit. Users choose what sub reddit they want to see . That is big difference from Facebook choosing for me

dogma1138 10y ago

Is it as problematic as censoring government reports about crime and immigration and using anti-terrorism laws to go after legitimate anti-government protestors? Most European news sources these days are heavily censored to the point of being near propaganda themselves. I would think Germany, Sweden and quite a few other countries would want to take a look at themselves before going after facebook. It seems lately that Germany and the EU as a whole are going after multinational corporations because they see fines as a new revenue source rather than because of due cause.

manquer 10y ago
Which government though ? And which anti government protestors ? Anti U.S. is fine when operating in U.S. However anti u.s. when operating globally is not cool. If you editorialze over and above local government regulations then you are a news source just like traditional media
- dogma1138 10y ago
  What does this has to do with the US? Germany has used anti-terrorism and hate speech laws to go after government critics especially around immigration policy, don't even let me get started on what is going on in places like Sweden. Overall I really don't like where Germany is headed, I don't give 2 fucks about the immigration policy; but I don't like the fact that they've effectively legislated censorship on one hand by fining companies that would not take down posts which contain "illegal speech" (which under that legislation does not actually have to be under violation of current German law, it's enough for the likes of Google or Facebook not to comply to a request to get fined) and now they also seek to fine companies that post "fake". Fake news aren't a problem, every news organization on all sides of the spectrum publishes 1000's of retractions and corrections on a monthly basis this is how news are written today when you have to battle for clicks. The EU funds NGOs all over the world quite a few of them would fall under what you would call propaganda and information warfare, propaganda doesn't have to be a lie or fabricated in fact the most effective propaganda and the one most commonly used is not, it's just selective and tailored to fit a narrative, spreading believable lies is considerably harder than spreading convenient selective truths. I don't see anyone going apeshit in the west about "lies" or well inaccuracies that appear on left wing media from Russian troop build ups that never happened to Israeli soldiers supposedly harvesting organs from Palestinians to near utter fabrications about things like the TTP before and even after most of the articles of the treaty were leaked to pseudo science about GMO's and tons of other garbage. These things happen all the time on daily basis, this isn't something that for some reason plagues the right wing media in the US. The problem is that today news is aggregated, much of the "fake" news we have today has always existed in effect it was and still tabloids and free dailies, it's the same inaccurate to utterly fabricated crap you would always get between the lochness monster and jesus appeared to me on a toast but now it's just on facebook and reddit. This isn't a problem; narrative news isn't a problem what is a problem is echo chambers and pre-selected information; if you want to do something about this "fake news" problem don't go after the tabloids; and don't go after facebook for publishing them, make it so that you and everyone else gets exposed to all news sources rather than a feed of what you want to hear or read - that's our problem. And what scares me the most is that some people are not scared and offended by the fact that their feed is in effect pre-selected based on what they want to consume; in fact they seem to applaud it they are offended when something passes through the filter and they get exposed to something that might not fit their self imposed worldview that gets narrower by the minute. So yes if you get to a point where 100% of your Facebook feed looks like the cutting floor of the Aftonbladet and you get something that might have an opposing view I understand that I can be unsettling; but instead of crying about that I would rather we all shed a tear about the fact that too many people get their news from a personalized self curated and self censored ministry of truth. The NSA isn't 1984; how people consume content on the internet today is, with a good dab of fahrenheit 451 in the mix, I hope we don't get to the part of burning books (again) or at this point what would that look like wiping hard drives or shadowbanning tweets?