4 ms·

> The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. At least in Germany there is hardly anybody who says something like that about Sn

by wolfgke 10y ago

> The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. At least in Germany there is hardly anybody who says something like that about Snowden. There are mostly two opinions about Snowden in Germany: 1. He is a hero - the opinion of the minority 2. They hardly care (but also have nothing negative to say about Snowden) - the opinion of the majority But there is hardly any opinion that he is a traitor (or even should be hanged - death penalty is a red line in Germany) - quite the opposite.

rebuilder 10y ago
Then again, he didn't work for the German government. I don't doubt that Germans have a different view on such issues than USians, I'm just saying it would be surprising if they cared enough about a US whistleblower to want Snowden killed.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Then again, he didn't work for the German government. As I outlined in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 in Germany many people don't consider the government as "us", but as "them" (those who rule "us"). So I don't believe that there would be large hatred in the German population (in opposite to the politicians) if Snowden betrayed the German government instead.
tw04 10y ago
So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? Sorry, what you claim to be the public perception, and the actions of your populace are completely misaligned. If the two prevailing mindsets were he's a hero and I don't care, then the he's a hero would be making a lot more noise, and the "I don't care" would probably give them half-hearted support just because they don't have a horse in the race and could therefore be easily convinced.
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  > So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? So where's the public outcry to jail the traitor? Just live with it, Germany's mileage varies drastically from the US, and the main reason is experience with the Nazis and the GDR. We know something you absolutely do not, and the world us asking Germany to learn from it, instead of the other way around, at its own peril. edit, just as a bonus, though I think the Spiegel isn't really that great: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html This and variations of that exist aplenty.
  - tw04 10y ago
    >So where's the public outcry to jail the traitor? In the US? All over the place. Fox News on pretty much a weekly basis. It was all over the campaign trail this last election as well.
    - PavlovsCat 10y ago
      Uhm, that was referring to Germany. I know that about the US, it's pretty hard to avoid. But anyway, since what we are telling you about our first-hand experiences with the people we talk to, regularly or occasionally, is dismissed with > If the two prevailing mindsets were he's a hero and I don't care, then the he's a hero would be making a lot more noise, and the "I don't care" would probably give them half-hearted support just because they don't have a horse in the race and could therefore be easily convinced. Then what are the prevailing mindsets in Germany? And how much more noise would people be making, what is a "lot"? Can you quantify it? Or are you just making up stuff that sounds reasonable to you, which has no connection with the truth on the ground here?
      - wolfgke 10y ago
        > Then what are the prevailing mindsets in Germany? I outlined them above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13271448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13271448 > And how much more noise would people be making, what is a "lot"? At the heyday of the Snowden revelations there was a large outcry. When talking about opinions in Germany one always has to distinguish between the opinion of the citizens and the opinion of the government (these are often very different). Of course the German government has a very USA-bootlicking opinion about the Snowden question. The fact that in Germany there (mostly) is free speech does not imply that the government is interested in your opinion. Take a nasty English joke about lawyers and replace "lawyer" by "politician" and you get the whole mentality quite well.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? There were many demands to give him asylum. Here some German articles about this topic (if you want to know what happens in Germany you will not get around understanding articles that are written in German): The reactions in Germany after the Snowden revelations: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Snowden&oldid=160935704#Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Snowden&ol... [TLDR: They were very positive towards Snowden] Fears that Germany would extradict Snowden if he came to Germany > http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/antrag-auf-asyl-warum-deutschland-snowden-ausliefern-wuerde-1.1710466 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/antrag-auf-asyl-warum-deu... USA threatens Germany if they give asylum to Snowden: > http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/snowden-asyl-usa-sollen-deutschland-gedroht-haben-a-1024841.html http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/snowden-asyl-usa-solle... > https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Asyl-fuer-Snowden-US-Regierung-drohte-wohl-Deutschland-2581426.html https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Asyl-fuer-Snowden-US... A very recent (22th of November 2016) article about whether Snowden could nevertheless get asylum in Germany > https://www.vice.com/de/article/so-bekommt-edward-snowden-doch-noch-asyl-in-deutschland https://www.vice.com/de/article/so-bekommt-edward-snowden-do... Another article from 2rd of May 2016 on occasion of that there was a live link with Snowden on the re:public. This article [even its headline] nicely brings across the completely different opinion that the German government and many German citizen have in the whole Snowden question: > http://www.rp-online.de/digitales/internet/edward-snowden-auf-der-republica-der-un-willkommene-gast-aid-1.5951112 http://www.rp-online.de/digitales/internet/edward-snowden-au...
- finid 10y ago
  So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? I think Snowden is smart enough to know that the only place he's safe right now is Moscow, Russia. Even if Germany or any other country offers him asylum, the US machine does not care. They'll find a way to get him, either while enroute, or as soon as he lands.

by wolfgke 10y ago

rebuilder 10y ago

Then again, he didn't work for the German government. I don't doubt that Germans have a different view on such issues than USians, I'm just saying it would be surprising if they cared enough about a US whistleblower to want Snowden killed.

wolfgke 10y ago
> Then again, he didn't work for the German government. As I outlined in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 in Germany many people don't consider the government as "us", but as "them" (those who rule "us"). So I don't believe that there would be large hatred in the German population (in opposite to the politicians) if Snowden betrayed the German government instead.

tw04 10y ago

So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? Sorry, what you claim to be the public perception, and the actions of your populace are completely misaligned. If the two prevailing mindsets were he's a hero and I don't care, then the he's a hero would be making a lot more noise, and the "I don't care" would probably give them half-hearted support just because they don't have a horse in the race and could therefore be easily convinced.

PavlovsCat 10y ago
> So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? So where's the public outcry to jail the traitor? Just live with it, Germany's mileage varies drastically from the US, and the main reason is experience with the Nazis and the GDR. We know something you absolutely do not, and the world us asking Germany to learn from it, instead of the other way around, at its own peril. edit, just as a bonus, though I think the Spiegel isn't really that great: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html This and variations of that exist aplenty.
- tw04 10y ago
  >So where's the public outcry to jail the traitor? In the US? All over the place. Fox News on pretty much a weekly basis. It was all over the campaign trail this last election as well.
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    Uhm, that was referring to Germany. I know that about the US, it's pretty hard to avoid. But anyway, since what we are telling you about our first-hand experiences with the people we talk to, regularly or occasionally, is dismissed with > If the two prevailing mindsets were he's a hero and I don't care, then the he's a hero would be making a lot more noise, and the "I don't care" would probably give them half-hearted support just because they don't have a horse in the race and could therefore be easily convinced. Then what are the prevailing mindsets in Germany? And how much more noise would people be making, what is a "lot"? Can you quantify it? Or are you just making up stuff that sounds reasonable to you, which has no connection with the truth on the ground here?
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      > Then what are the prevailing mindsets in Germany? I outlined them above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13271448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13271448 > And how much more noise would people be making, what is a "lot"? At the heyday of the Snowden revelations there was a large outcry. When talking about opinions in Germany one always has to distinguish between the opinion of the citizens and the opinion of the government (these are often very different). Of course the German government has a very USA-bootlicking opinion about the Snowden question. The fact that in Germany there (mostly) is free speech does not imply that the government is interested in your opinion. Take a nasty English joke about lawyers and replace "lawyer" by "politician" and you get the whole mentality quite well.
wolfgke 10y ago
> So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? There were many demands to give him asylum. Here some German articles about this topic (if you want to know what happens in Germany you will not get around understanding articles that are written in German): The reactions in Germany after the Snowden revelations: > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Snowden&oldid=160935704#Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Snowden&ol... [TLDR: They were very positive towards Snowden] Fears that Germany would extradict Snowden if he came to Germany > http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/antrag-auf-asyl-warum-deutschland-snowden-ausliefern-wuerde-1.1710466 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/antrag-auf-asyl-warum-deu... USA threatens Germany if they give asylum to Snowden: > http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/snowden-asyl-usa-sollen-deutschland-gedroht-haben-a-1024841.html http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/snowden-asyl-usa-solle... > https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Asyl-fuer-Snowden-US-Regierung-drohte-wohl-Deutschland-2581426.html https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Asyl-fuer-Snowden-US... A very recent (22th of November 2016) article about whether Snowden could nevertheless get asylum in Germany > https://www.vice.com/de/article/so-bekommt-edward-snowden-doch-noch-asyl-in-deutschland https://www.vice.com/de/article/so-bekommt-edward-snowden-do... Another article from 2rd of May 2016 on occasion of that there was a live link with Snowden on the re:public. This article [even its headline] nicely brings across the completely different opinion that the German government and many German citizen have in the whole Snowden question: > http://www.rp-online.de/digitales/internet/edward-snowden-auf-der-republica-der-un-willkommene-gast-aid-1.5951112 http://www.rp-online.de/digitales/internet/edward-snowden-au...
finid 10y ago
So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? I think Snowden is smart enough to know that the only place he's safe right now is Moscow, Russia. Even if Germany or any other country offers him asylum, the US machine does not care. They'll find a way to get him, either while enroute, or as soon as he lands.