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The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. How exactly are you planning on getting them onboard this cause? Hey guys - this i

by tw04 10y ago

The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. How exactly are you planning on getting them onboard this cause? Hey guys - this is going to make a bunch of your apps work poorly or not at all, but it protects you from something you aren't informed enough or smart enough to be scared of in the first place. Please support me? Oh, and by the way, it'll make your phone cost more money.

rmxt 10y ago
I'm not sure that what people believe about Snowden is inextricably tied to people's perception of location tracking. In fact, I speculate that there are probably some people who both think Snowden is a traitor and think that corporations or the government shouldn't be location tracking them. (That's ignoring the futility that is speaking in broad strokes about "the general public".) Furthermore, I am not sure that any of those are necessarily a given. I'm not advocating for breaking apps or an abrupt shift to no location services, I'm not dismissing your average end-user's needs/desires or insulting their intelligence. I'm hypothesizing that there might be ways to get non-GPS location services out of the hands of a few big players. It theoretically wouldn't make your phone cost more money, but it might take the time-money-effort of people who build the systems (maybe open-source?). I'm trying to appeal to the people who build the systems and brainstorm ways to do that, not really rally the end-users to this particular cause.
- tw04 10y ago
  >I'm trying to appeal to the people who build the systems and brainstorm ways to do that, not really rally the end-users to this particular cause. The people that "build the systems" are paid for by those corporations who make money by tracking you. Who exactly do you think is going to: A. Fund this new decentralized non-tracking utopia. B. Convince users already embedded in existing systems to switch to something less functional in order to not be tracked? EVERY project that's tried what you're describing has failed miserably because end-users just don't care. Can you cite even ONE example of a competing system that has focused on privacy that has garnered what can be considered even a modicum of success against an already entrenched player?
  - rmxt 10y ago
    Fair points. Someone has to "pay", whether through effort or money, for the new systems to garner traction. I agree that it is hard to see where the momentum could or would come from, and no I cannot name an instance where something has garnered significant traction. Some of the alternative android location services are at least functioning for technical users. (https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp) We return to my issue: does it being difficult and yet to be achieved mean that the people that are aware of potential drawbacks of the status quo should lay down and give up? That seems to be your implication.
    - tw04 10y ago
      No, my implication is it's (almost) an all-or nothing game. What good does it do me if out of all my friends and family, I'm the only one not using the popular services that track? So... the 2 hours a day I'm not with a family member or coworker or friend I can't be tracked? And to do so I literally have to disable everything on my phone manually (no more bluetooth streaming in the car, manually turn off the wifi on my phone every time I leave the house, somehow magically prevent the cell towers from tracking me). If you cannot get the general populous to agree and actively vote for privacy, you're fighting a battle that's already been lost.
wolfgke 10y ago
> The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. At least in Germany there is hardly anybody who says something like that about Snowden. There are mostly two opinions about Snowden in Germany: 1. He is a hero - the opinion of the minority 2. They hardly care (but also have nothing negative to say about Snowden) - the opinion of the majority But there is hardly any opinion that he is a traitor (or even should be hanged - death penalty is a red line in Germany) - quite the opposite.
- rebuilder 10y ago
  Then again, he didn't work for the German government. I don't doubt that Germans have a different view on such issues than USians, I'm just saying it would be surprising if they cared enough about a US whistleblower to want Snowden killed.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > Then again, he didn't work for the German government. As I outlined in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 in Germany many people don't consider the government as "us", but as "them" (those who rule "us"). So I don't believe that there would be large hatred in the German population (in opposite to the politicians) if Snowden betrayed the German government instead.
- tw04 10y ago
  So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? Sorry, what you claim to be the public perception, and the actions of your populace are completely misaligned. If the two prevailing mindsets were he's a hero and I don't care, then the he's a hero would be making a lot more noise, and the "I don't care" would probably give them half-hearted support just because they don't have a horse in the race and could therefore be easily convinced.
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    > So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? So where's the public outcry to jail the traitor? Just live with it, Germany's mileage varies drastically from the US, and the main reason is experience with the Nazis and the GDR. We know something you absolutely do not, and the world us asking Germany to learn from it, instead of the other way around, at its own peril. edit, just as a bonus, though I think the Spiegel isn't really that great: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html This and variations of that exist aplenty.
diegoperini 10y ago
I live in a country with almost 80 million people and 99% percent of the population (this is optimistic) has never heard of Snowden. The country is Turkey therefore this may sound irrelevant but actually it can suggest that the real source of harm is not the opposing people, but the ignorant. Some reports: About freedom: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/turkey https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/turkey About education: https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf
YCode 10y ago
> The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. Not really: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/22/most-young-americans-say-snowden-has-served-the-public-interest/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/22/most-young-a... Views are even better abroad.

by tw04 10y ago

rmxt 10y ago

I'm not sure that what people believe about Snowden is inextricably tied to people's perception of location tracking. In fact, I speculate that there are probably some people who both think Snowden is a traitor and think that corporations or the government shouldn't be location tracking them. (That's ignoring the futility that is speaking in broad strokes about "the general public".) Furthermore, I am not sure that any of those are necessarily a given. I'm not advocating for breaking apps or an abrupt shift to no location services, I'm not dismissing your average end-user's needs/desires or insulting their intelligence. I'm hypothesizing that there might be ways to get non-GPS location services out of the hands of a few big players. It theoretically wouldn't make your phone cost more money, but it might take the time-money-effort of people who build the systems (maybe open-source?). I'm trying to appeal to the people who build the systems and brainstorm ways to do that, not really rally the end-users to this particular cause.

tw04 10y ago
>I'm trying to appeal to the people who build the systems and brainstorm ways to do that, not really rally the end-users to this particular cause. The people that "build the systems" are paid for by those corporations who make money by tracking you. Who exactly do you think is going to: A. Fund this new decentralized non-tracking utopia. B. Convince users already embedded in existing systems to switch to something less functional in order to not be tracked? EVERY project that's tried what you're describing has failed miserably because end-users just don't care. Can you cite even ONE example of a competing system that has focused on privacy that has garnered what can be considered even a modicum of success against an already entrenched player?
- rmxt 10y ago
  Fair points. Someone has to "pay", whether through effort or money, for the new systems to garner traction. I agree that it is hard to see where the momentum could or would come from, and no I cannot name an instance where something has garnered significant traction. Some of the alternative android location services are at least functioning for technical users. (https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp) We return to my issue: does it being difficult and yet to be achieved mean that the people that are aware of potential drawbacks of the status quo should lay down and give up? That seems to be your implication.
  - tw04 10y ago
    No, my implication is it's (almost) an all-or nothing game. What good does it do me if out of all my friends and family, I'm the only one not using the popular services that track? So... the 2 hours a day I'm not with a family member or coworker or friend I can't be tracked? And to do so I literally have to disable everything on my phone manually (no more bluetooth streaming in the car, manually turn off the wifi on my phone every time I leave the house, somehow magically prevent the cell towers from tracking me). If you cannot get the general populous to agree and actively vote for privacy, you're fighting a battle that's already been lost.

wolfgke 10y ago

> The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. At least in Germany there is hardly anybody who says something like that about Snowden. There are mostly two opinions about Snowden in Germany: 1. He is a hero - the opinion of the minority 2. They hardly care (but also have nothing negative to say about Snowden) - the opinion of the majority But there is hardly any opinion that he is a traitor (or even should be hanged - death penalty is a red line in Germany) - quite the opposite.

rebuilder 10y ago
Then again, he didn't work for the German government. I don't doubt that Germans have a different view on such issues than USians, I'm just saying it would be surprising if they cared enough about a US whistleblower to want Snowden killed.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Then again, he didn't work for the German government. As I outlined in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13272352 in Germany many people don't consider the government as "us", but as "them" (those who rule "us"). So I don't believe that there would be large hatred in the German population (in opposite to the politicians) if Snowden betrayed the German government instead.
tw04 10y ago
So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? Sorry, what you claim to be the public perception, and the actions of your populace are completely misaligned. If the two prevailing mindsets were he's a hero and I don't care, then the he's a hero would be making a lot more noise, and the "I don't care" would probably give them half-hearted support just because they don't have a horse in the race and could therefore be easily convinced.
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  > So where's your public outcry to give him asylum? So where's the public outcry to jail the traitor? Just live with it, Germany's mileage varies drastically from the US, and the main reason is experience with the Nazis and the GDR. We know something you absolutely do not, and the world us asking Germany to learn from it, instead of the other way around, at its own peril. edit, just as a bonus, though I think the Spiegel isn't really that great: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2013-45.html This and variations of that exist aplenty.

diegoperini 10y ago

I live in a country with almost 80 million people and 99% percent of the population (this is optimistic) has never heard of Snowden. The country is Turkey therefore this may sound irrelevant but actually it can suggest that the real source of harm is not the opposing people, but the ignorant. Some reports: About freedom: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/turkey https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/turkey About education: https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf

YCode 10y ago

> The general public thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor who should be hanged. Not really: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/22/most-young-americans-say-snowden-has-served-the-public-interest/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/22/most-young-a... Views are even better abroad.