7 ms·

> If you're fighting, you've lost. I don't really get this attitude, it means that nothing new will ever overcome anything that's been established. > Anything

> If you're fighting, you've lost. I don't really get this attitude, it means that nothing new will ever overcome anything that's been established. > Anything that can be done easily in C or C++ will need to be easier in Rust for everyone to move You don't even need folks to move from C. Rust has had lots of success when it comes to folks completely new to systems programming learning it through Rust. Predominantly python/ruby/whatever shops are using Rust because they need a fast language, but don't want to deal with safety issues. > Blog posts wont pull me away from C, tooling and docs will. Then you are not the right audience for this blog post :) I find that such blog posts are extremely helpful in convincing people who have a choice between starting to use C and starting to use Rust, not folks who are already invested in C or C++. But I have seen such overviews to have impact on invested C/C++ programmers too; everyone is different!

tines 10y ago
>> If you're fighting, you've lost. > I don't really get this attitude, it means that nothing new will ever overcome anything that's been established. I think he's trying to quote Dan Saks' "extern c: Talking to C Programmers about C++" when he said "If you're arguing, you've lost." Saks, at least, meant that if you're striving with someone, you've already lost because your partner is already in a "frame" of mind set against your arguments that is unbreakably strong, even by logic. The talk is really good just for that aspect.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  Ah, I see. Yeah. I read that post more as a demonstration than a "fighting". But that's a valid point.
- gravypod 10y ago
  I would have linked the video had I remembered the talk but exactly. This is what I meant.
adrianN 10y ago
I'm currently trying to learn Rust, but if my motivation were "I need a fast language and don't want to deal with safety issues", I'd use Java. It's plenty fast (especially compared to something like Ruby!), the ecosystem is huge and tooling is extremely mature.
- EugeneOZ 10y ago
  Java has not so great reputation about safety.
  - copperx 10y ago
    Please expound on that. Garbage collection, no pointer arithmetic, and array bounds checking seems like good safety features.
    - duneroadrunner 10y ago
      Well, I don't know about java's reputation, but there's this: http://www.cvedetails.com/product/19117/Oracle-JRE.html?vendor_id=93 http://www.cvedetails.com/product/19117/Oracle-JRE.html?vend... http://www.cvedetails.com/product/1526/SUN-JRE.html?vendor_id=5 http://www.cvedetails.com/product/1526/SUN-JRE.html?vendor_i...
      - chungy 10y ago
        Security exploits say nothing about the language's memory safety design. Java still qualifies as a safe language.
        EugeneOZ 10y ago
        As a safe language from race conditions or memory leaks?
      - adrianN 10y ago
        The Java VM is written in C though.
vatotemking 10y ago
> You don't even need folks to move from C. Rust has had lots of success when it comes to folks completely new to systems programming learning it through Rust. Predominantly python/ruby/whatever shops are using Rust because they need a fast language, but don't want to deal with safety issues. This resonates well with me. I came from PHP and I decided to learn C in order to contribute to an existing PHP extension. I was doing well following a C tutorial. Until I arrived at string manipulation at which point I said, f* this sh. So looked for an alternative systems programming language to learn, and found Rust. And its a pleasant language to work on. Its a low level language that feels like a high level language. My only fear is that, if Rust becomes a popular language, the community will end up as toxic as the JS and PHP community. Right now, the Rust community is filled with the smartest and friendliest devs I know of among open source communities, and I kinda like it to stay that way.
- hueving 10y ago
  >Right now, the Rust community is filled with the smartest and friendliest devs I know of among open source communities, and I kinda like it to stay that way. I have yet to find a community that has gotten popular and hasn't turned into a sewage plant. I think it's just a reflection on what the general population is like... :(
  - sjellis 10y ago
    The Rust community is as great as it is because of very deliberate decisions and investment in engineering structures to maintain a positive community at scale, so I'm pretty optimistic that it will stay really good. Arguably this work is as innovative as the language itself. Emily Dunham of Mozilla has a talk about this Community Automation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg
    - hueving 10y ago
      The rust community is very small so it's easy to 'engineer it' at this phase. Once it gets so large that you have an eternal September it's effectively a complex system that will be very difficult to reason about with any changes resulting in lots of gnarly side effects. Name a large programming community that is pleasant to interact with for newcomers and insiders alike.
throwitfar 10y ago
Do people choose languages based on blog posts? I've never done that, usually it was a combination of literature and mailing lists that convinced me. I also ignore conferences entirely.
jedahan 10y ago
I would love examples of writing about rust that didn't mention or assume any C/C++ knowledge before. So much of what I've run into assumes that knowledge. I'd love to read tutorials or books that assume Rust is someone's first programming language, period. What would that look like?
- steveklabnik 10y ago
  The book doesn't assume any C/C++ knowledge. There isn't any good "first programming language" material using Rust yet, IMHO.

tines 10y ago

>> If you're fighting, you've lost. > I don't really get this attitude, it means that nothing new will ever overcome anything that's been established. I think he's trying to quote Dan Saks' "extern c: Talking to C Programmers about C++" when he said "If you're arguing, you've lost." Saks, at least, meant that if you're striving with someone, you've already lost because your partner is already in a "frame" of mind set against your arguments that is unbreakably strong, even by logic. The talk is really good just for that aspect.

Manishearth 10y ago
Ah, I see. Yeah. I read that post more as a demonstration than a "fighting". But that's a valid point.
gravypod 10y ago
I would have linked the video had I remembered the talk but exactly. This is what I meant.

adrianN 10y ago

I'm currently trying to learn Rust, but if my motivation were "I need a fast language and don't want to deal with safety issues", I'd use Java. It's plenty fast (especially compared to something like Ruby!), the ecosystem is huge and tooling is extremely mature.

EugeneOZ 10y ago
Java has not so great reputation about safety.
- copperx 10y ago
  Please expound on that. Garbage collection, no pointer arithmetic, and array bounds checking seems like good safety features.
  - duneroadrunner 10y ago
    Well, I don't know about java's reputation, but there's this: http://www.cvedetails.com/product/19117/Oracle-JRE.html?vendor_id=93 http://www.cvedetails.com/product/19117/Oracle-JRE.html?vend... http://www.cvedetails.com/product/1526/SUN-JRE.html?vendor_id=5 http://www.cvedetails.com/product/1526/SUN-JRE.html?vendor_i...
    - chungy 10y ago
      Security exploits say nothing about the language's memory safety design. Java still qualifies as a safe language.
      - EugeneOZ 10y ago
        As a safe language from race conditions or memory leaks?
    - adrianN 10y ago
      The Java VM is written in C though.

vatotemking 10y ago

> You don't even need folks to move from C. Rust has had lots of success when it comes to folks completely new to systems programming learning it through Rust. Predominantly python/ruby/whatever shops are using Rust because they need a fast language, but don't want to deal with safety issues. This resonates well with me. I came from PHP and I decided to learn C in order to contribute to an existing PHP extension. I was doing well following a C tutorial. Until I arrived at string manipulation at which point I said, f* this sh. So looked for an alternative systems programming language to learn, and found Rust. And its a pleasant language to work on. Its a low level language that feels like a high level language. My only fear is that, if Rust becomes a popular language, the community will end up as toxic as the JS and PHP community. Right now, the Rust community is filled with the smartest and friendliest devs I know of among open source communities, and I kinda like it to stay that way.

hueving 10y ago
>Right now, the Rust community is filled with the smartest and friendliest devs I know of among open source communities, and I kinda like it to stay that way. I have yet to find a community that has gotten popular and hasn't turned into a sewage plant. I think it's just a reflection on what the general population is like... :(
- sjellis 10y ago
  The Rust community is as great as it is because of very deliberate decisions and investment in engineering structures to maintain a positive community at scale, so I'm pretty optimistic that it will stay really good. Arguably this work is as innovative as the language itself. Emily Dunham of Mozilla has a talk about this Community Automation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg
  - hueving 10y ago
    The rust community is very small so it's easy to 'engineer it' at this phase. Once it gets so large that you have an eternal September it's effectively a complex system that will be very difficult to reason about with any changes resulting in lots of gnarly side effects. Name a large programming community that is pleasant to interact with for newcomers and insiders alike.

throwitfar 10y ago

Do people choose languages based on blog posts? I've never done that, usually it was a combination of literature and mailing lists that convinced me. I also ignore conferences entirely.

jedahan 10y ago

I would love examples of writing about rust that didn't mention or assume any C/C++ knowledge before. So much of what I've run into assumes that knowledge. I'd love to read tutorials or books that assume Rust is someone's first programming language, period. What would that look like?

steveklabnik 10y ago
The book doesn't assume any C/C++ knowledge. There isn't any good "first programming language" material using Rust yet, IMHO.