7 ms·

Bach's Holy Dread

131 points by tintinnabula 10y ago

gardano 10y ago
Folks… despite the 'dreadful' link baiting in the title, this is a pretty great article.
- seeekr 10y ago
  Upvoted. Despite the sibling comment (+ thread) explaining quite well (thank you) about "dread" and "holy dread", that's not something everyone is knowledgeable about, and as such the title can appear to be "baity". Especially as a non-native speaker, as well as someone not into devotional music and its history, this comment was appreciated, and it was what made me decide to read it, which I'm glad I did! Thanks!
- _petronius 10y ago
  Nothing linkbaity about it. "Dread" as in "fear of God" is a common theme in western Christianity, especially around Bach's time (and still is in some cases today, cf. the Rastafarian dreadlocks being a symbol of respect for the power of God). And in this sense, "fear" is meant less as "scary haunted house" kind of fear, and more as respect and obedience to the divine power. Also of interest: the etymology of the word "dread"[0]; Fear-God Barebone, the brother of the more famous Praise-God Barebone, for whom the "Barbone's Parliament" during the English Commonwealth takes its name[1][2]; and the theological theory behind the idea of the fear of God[3]. [0]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=dread http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&searc... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praise-God_Barebone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praise-God_Barebone [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barebone's_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barebone's_Parliament [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_God
  - pvg 10y ago
    The phrase itself is well known and has been kicking around for ages. Samuel Taylor Coleridge's famous drug trip: "And close your eyes with holy dread" But also Wycliffe's Bible, from the late 1300s: "The hooli drede of the Lord dwellith in to world of world"
  - defen 10y ago
    Puritans had the best names. Praise-God's son was named "Nicholas If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barebone"
    - _petronius 10y ago
      Ah, fantastic. Some cultures still do names like that: I once met a woman from Zimbabwe whose name translated as "Merciful Lord", which I thought was pretty cool.
michaelsbradley 10y ago
I've been attending a traditional Catholic parish for several years now, and over the last year got involved (for the first time in my life) with my church's choir. I've always loved music and could already read a bit of Western notation (owing to piano lessons at a young age – thanks, mom!), but really didn't (and don't) know that much about it, with respect to both theory and performance. The journey to the "production" side of sacred music has been an interesting one (still very much ongoing), and I feel quite enriched by what I've learned and experienced over the last few months. I encourage everyone to step out of their comfort zone and learn a bit more about music ~ it's rich history and the joy it can bring to so many. Listen to music from 3 centuries past, from 100 and 1,500 years ago! At Midnight Mass 2016, just a few days ago, we offered Michael Haydn's (1737–1806)[1] Missa Sancti Gabrielis[2]. The younger Hadyn was a teenager when Bach died, and his music was shaped in and shaping the period following the Baroque era (Bach's era), which we identify today as the Classical period. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Haydn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Haydn [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_sEDzrkIM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_sEDzrkIM4
- fiatjaf 10y ago
  So, despite not knowing any music from the production side, you manage to easily enter and sing on the choir? I wanted to do something, but my voice seems very out of tune for that I despite various efforts I can't get it much better. Advise me, please.
  - dizzyfingers 10y ago
    Its probabaly not your voice, it's more likely that you could use some ear training, try musictheory.net
  - jabv 10y ago
    A decent voice teacher can help with that. Not everyone can be Frank Sinatra, but you can learn to sing well enough to join an amateur choir if you desire. To find an inexpensive voice teacher, look up the information for a voice professor at the nearest college, and ask for a referral to one of their students (don't shy away from an undergraduate, and be clear you're a total beginner).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
when I read (excellent) music articles like this I just wish they came with a sidebar with the music excerpts that are being discussed.
- keithpeter 10y ago
  I know what you mean: a direct example of what was being discussed would help. The Dunedin consort have some very short excerpts from the Bach passions on their site, including the Herr, unser Herrscher chorus mentioned in the first paragraph. There is a longer video trailer available. I am familiar with large force performances of the Bach passions and found the small ensemble approach sufficiently interesting to purchase an actual recording.
- ecuzzillo 10y ago
  They're all easy to look up on Spotify, and the article was much better for listening to them at appropriate points.
  - freddie_mercury 10y ago
    Spotify isn't available in the country I live in.
- smortaz 10y ago
  Totally! Meanwhile, here's the magnificent Herr, unser Herrscher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcinMxNYBc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcinMxNYBc
- fiatjaf 10y ago
  Well, I think you're supposed to know the music beforehand. What would you do if the article was a comment on some piece of literature?
  - Nullabillity 10y ago
    Then, presumably, it would quote the applicable segments. Or it would, at the very least, contain a link to the whole article.
graycat 10y ago
I deeply, profoundly, bitterly hate and despise the mainstream media (MSM) but: Here, with the OP, thank you HN, the Internet, and The New Yorker, there is, infinitely welcome as a grand exception, something very worthwhile -- candidate for one of the crown jewels of civilization! Thank you Bach, BBC, PROMS, Kathryn Knight, Internet, Google, and YouTube: As I type this, I'm listening to a good performance, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTm_KdxqPPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTm_KdxqPPk Now how to get the rest of the MSM to clean up their act, up their game, and start to catch up to even 10% of the OP!
- telesilla 10y ago
  For the St. Matthews Passion, this is considered one of the great recordings - directed by the great Philipp Herreweghe. Truly exquisite. I bought this on CD a long time ago and had it on repeat for the entire first month. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78XgYWGXDjw&list=PLiJnN4bTWJ116Nifmxsd_BoAZ-mTpQvuT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78XgYWGXDjw&list=PLiJnN4bTWJ... https://smile.amazon.com/Bach-Matthaus-Passion-Bostridge-Collegium-Herreweghe/dp/B00002R0ZL?ie=UTF8&redirect=true https://smile.amazon.com/Bach-Matthaus-Passion-Bostridge-Col...
  - graycat 10y ago
    Thanks!
  - nicolast 10y ago
    FWIW, it's very interesting to take the various recordings (or recordings of performances) Herreweghe did over the last 30 years, with various ensembles (though many with Collegium Vocale of course), and compare the interpretations (tempo, vocals, dynamics,...). Worth some time.
    - telesilla 10y ago
      Do you have a particular favourite?
anjc 10y ago
The depth of devotion evident in Bach's music would almost drive you towards being more religious. It's powerful. There's an excellent site which I've looked at periodically for years which goes through every prelude and fugue in the WTC and gives an interpretation of them, along with religious interpretations where applicable for structures and phrases and voices and so on. It also lets you play single bars and things. It's very good: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/wtc.html http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/wtc.html Here's my favorite lament, the C#m fugue, which is relevant given the article: http://bach.nau.edu/clavier/nature/fugues/Fugue04.html http://bach.nau.edu/clavier/nature/fugues/Fugue04.html
- Keyserlingk 10y ago
  That is a great link! Thank you for posting it. This is the Internet at its best.
- cocochanel 10y ago
  Thank you for this amazing link!
  - anjc 10y ago
    You're welcome!
Keyserlingk 10y ago
Following through that link from anjc leads to this: http://bach.nau.edu http://bach.nau.edu Interactive St. Matthew Passion and Mass in B Minor there, plus the Goldberg Variations and Well-Tempered Clavier
lochland 10y ago
Another excellent book on this subject, which examines Bach's counterpoint and its varied meanings to his contemporary society, including religious meanings, is "Bach and the meanings of counterpoint" by David Yearsley. A terrific read full of examples for those interested.
Ericson2314 10y ago
Ah, finally an art essay in the New Yorker on something that I'm knowledgeable about.
ilaksh 10y ago
It almost seems as if some people believe that music hasn't really evolved in the last century. I have been binging 'Mozart in the Jungle' and remeber one part where they were trying to tie into contemporary composition. They just stuck a loop of some random keyboarding by 'the maestro' into a fairly simple extremely loud EDM track that mainly expressed violence. Such subtle evaluation of 18th century sounds with no serious effort to integrate or bridge the gap with contemporary tools and audiences. Its a pretentious, irrelevant, backwards-looking fantasy world.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Bach's Holy Dread

131 points by tintinnabula 10y ago

gardano 10y ago

Folks… despite the 'dreadful' link baiting in the title, this is a pretty great article.

seeekr 10y ago
Upvoted. Despite the sibling comment (+ thread) explaining quite well (thank you) about "dread" and "holy dread", that's not something everyone is knowledgeable about, and as such the title can appear to be "baity". Especially as a non-native speaker, as well as someone not into devotional music and its history, this comment was appreciated, and it was what made me decide to read it, which I'm glad I did! Thanks!
_petronius 10y ago
Nothing linkbaity about it. "Dread" as in "fear of God" is a common theme in western Christianity, especially around Bach's time (and still is in some cases today, cf. the Rastafarian dreadlocks being a symbol of respect for the power of God). And in this sense, "fear" is meant less as "scary haunted house" kind of fear, and more as respect and obedience to the divine power. Also of interest: the etymology of the word "dread"[0]; Fear-God Barebone, the brother of the more famous Praise-God Barebone, for whom the "Barbone's Parliament" during the English Commonwealth takes its name[1][2]; and the theological theory behind the idea of the fear of God[3]. [0]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=dread http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&searc... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praise-God_Barebone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praise-God_Barebone [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barebone's_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barebone's_Parliament [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_God
- pvg 10y ago
  The phrase itself is well known and has been kicking around for ages. Samuel Taylor Coleridge's famous drug trip: "And close your eyes with holy dread" But also Wycliffe's Bible, from the late 1300s: "The hooli drede of the Lord dwellith in to world of world"
- defen 10y ago
  Puritans had the best names. Praise-God's son was named "Nicholas If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barebone"
  - _petronius 10y ago
    Ah, fantastic. Some cultures still do names like that: I once met a woman from Zimbabwe whose name translated as "Merciful Lord", which I thought was pretty cool.

michaelsbradley 10y ago

I've been attending a traditional Catholic parish for several years now, and over the last year got involved (for the first time in my life) with my church's choir. I've always loved music and could already read a bit of Western notation (owing to piano lessons at a young age – thanks, mom!), but really didn't (and don't) know that much about it, with respect to both theory and performance. The journey to the "production" side of sacred music has been an interesting one (still very much ongoing), and I feel quite enriched by what I've learned and experienced over the last few months. I encourage everyone to step out of their comfort zone and learn a bit more about music ~ it's rich history and the joy it can bring to so many. Listen to music from 3 centuries past, from 100 and 1,500 years ago! At Midnight Mass 2016, just a few days ago, we offered Michael Haydn's (1737–1806)[1] Missa Sancti Gabrielis[2]. The younger Hadyn was a teenager when Bach died, and his music was shaped in and shaping the period following the Baroque era (Bach's era), which we identify today as the Classical period. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Haydn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Haydn [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_sEDzrkIM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_sEDzrkIM4

fiatjaf 10y ago
So, despite not knowing any music from the production side, you manage to easily enter and sing on the choir? I wanted to do something, but my voice seems very out of tune for that I despite various efforts I can't get it much better. Advise me, please.
- dizzyfingers 10y ago
  Its probabaly not your voice, it's more likely that you could use some ear training, try musictheory.net
- jabv 10y ago
  A decent voice teacher can help with that. Not everyone can be Frank Sinatra, but you can learn to sing well enough to join an amateur choir if you desire. To find an inexpensive voice teacher, look up the information for a voice professor at the nearest college, and ask for a referral to one of their students (don't shy away from an undergraduate, and be clear you're a total beginner).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

tetraodonpuffer 10y ago

when I read (excellent) music articles like this I just wish they came with a sidebar with the music excerpts that are being discussed.

keithpeter 10y ago
I know what you mean: a direct example of what was being discussed would help. The Dunedin consort have some very short excerpts from the Bach passions on their site, including the Herr, unser Herrscher chorus mentioned in the first paragraph. There is a longer video trailer available. I am familiar with large force performances of the Bach passions and found the small ensemble approach sufficiently interesting to purchase an actual recording.
ecuzzillo 10y ago
They're all easy to look up on Spotify, and the article was much better for listening to them at appropriate points.
- freddie_mercury 10y ago
  Spotify isn't available in the country I live in.
smortaz 10y ago
Totally! Meanwhile, here's the magnificent Herr, unser Herrscher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcinMxNYBc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcinMxNYBc
fiatjaf 10y ago
Well, I think you're supposed to know the music beforehand. What would you do if the article was a comment on some piece of literature?
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  Then, presumably, it would quote the applicable segments. Or it would, at the very least, contain a link to the whole article.

graycat 10y ago

I deeply, profoundly, bitterly hate and despise the mainstream media (MSM) but: Here, with the OP, thank you HN, the Internet, and The New Yorker, there is, infinitely welcome as a grand exception, something very worthwhile -- candidate for one of the crown jewels of civilization! Thank you Bach, BBC, PROMS, Kathryn Knight, Internet, Google, and YouTube: As I type this, I'm listening to a good performance, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTm_KdxqPPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTm_KdxqPPk Now how to get the rest of the MSM to clean up their act, up their game, and start to catch up to even 10% of the OP!

telesilla 10y ago
For the St. Matthews Passion, this is considered one of the great recordings - directed by the great Philipp Herreweghe. Truly exquisite. I bought this on CD a long time ago and had it on repeat for the entire first month. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78XgYWGXDjw&list=PLiJnN4bTWJ116Nifmxsd_BoAZ-mTpQvuT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78XgYWGXDjw&list=PLiJnN4bTWJ... https://smile.amazon.com/Bach-Matthaus-Passion-Bostridge-Collegium-Herreweghe/dp/B00002R0ZL?ie=UTF8&redirect=true https://smile.amazon.com/Bach-Matthaus-Passion-Bostridge-Col...
- graycat 10y ago
  Thanks!
- nicolast 10y ago
  FWIW, it's very interesting to take the various recordings (or recordings of performances) Herreweghe did over the last 30 years, with various ensembles (though many with Collegium Vocale of course), and compare the interpretations (tempo, vocals, dynamics,...). Worth some time.
  - telesilla 10y ago
    Do you have a particular favourite?

anjc 10y ago

The depth of devotion evident in Bach's music would almost drive you towards being more religious. It's powerful. There's an excellent site which I've looked at periodically for years which goes through every prelude and fugue in the WTC and gives an interpretation of them, along with religious interpretations where applicable for structures and phrases and voices and so on. It also lets you play single bars and things. It's very good: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/wtc.html http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/wtc.html Here's my favorite lament, the C#m fugue, which is relevant given the article: http://bach.nau.edu/clavier/nature/fugues/Fugue04.html http://bach.nau.edu/clavier/nature/fugues/Fugue04.html

Keyserlingk 10y ago
That is a great link! Thank you for posting it. This is the Internet at its best.
cocochanel 10y ago
Thank you for this amazing link!
- anjc 10y ago
  You're welcome!

Keyserlingk 10y ago

Following through that link from anjc leads to this: http://bach.nau.edu http://bach.nau.edu Interactive St. Matthew Passion and Mass in B Minor there, plus the Goldberg Variations and Well-Tempered Clavier

lochland 10y ago

Another excellent book on this subject, which examines Bach's counterpoint and its varied meanings to his contemporary society, including religious meanings, is "Bach and the meanings of counterpoint" by David Yearsley. A terrific read full of examples for those interested.

Ericson2314 10y ago

Ah, finally an art essay in the New Yorker on something that I'm knowledgeable about.

ilaksh 10y ago

It almost seems as if some people believe that music hasn't really evolved in the last century. I have been binging 'Mozart in the Jungle' and remeber one part where they were trying to tie into contemporary composition. They just stuck a loop of some random keyboarding by 'the maestro' into a fairly simple extremely loud EDM track that mainly expressed violence. Such subtle evaluation of 18th century sounds with no serious effort to integrate or bridge the gap with contemporary tools and audiences. Its a pretentious, irrelevant, backwards-looking fantasy world.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]