5 ms·

I can't help but wonder how much of that technology is stolen.

by Mizza 10y ago

devoply 10y ago
The US steals talent, say Chinese graduate students. They steal the results of that stolen talent. You can justify anything if you put your mind to it.
- fspeech 10y ago
  The article clearly stated: "TDK separated from CATL to focus on batteries for mobile consumer electronics, but still collects royalties on some intellectual property used by CATL, a spokesman for the Japanese company said." Is there any justification to call a company paying royalty for technology "stealing"?
  - devoply 10y ago
    There could be justification, as licensing some tech does not mean you are licensing all tech that you are using. At the end of the day it's a question about reputation. The Chinese have a reputation of not respecting the property rights of Western companies. And for good reason, because how else are you going to get ahead?
- mattnewton 10y ago
  You can't steal talent, only offer them a better life. (For the record I don't know enough to see if there is any "stealing" of ip going on here either)
- golergka 10y ago
  You can only steal property. Is that what you consider graduate students to be?
Hondor 10y ago
IP that's taken out of the jurisdiction where it's theft is illegal isn't really stolen. It's not like stealing a TV where the person who used to own it loses it. The reason it causes a problem is that the customs aren't strict enough banning the import of goods made with illegal IP use.
- dispose13432 10y ago
  Is it that China doesn't have IP laws, or is it that China is lax in enforcing IP laws? In other words, if Samsung will steal IP from a favorite "Chinese" company, will China says "fair is fair" or will it fine them through the nose.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    China of course has IP laws, since they're a signatory to international conventions like the Berne Convention. Enforcement is quite another matter. As for whether they would overlook foreign companies infringing on domestic IP -- would depend very much on the particular companies and countries involved. Fining a foreign company always has a political component that the Chinese authorities are much more sensitive to, than, say, a Western court.
    - dispose13432 10y ago
      >China of course has IP laws, since they're a signatory to international conventions like the Berne Convention. Enforcement is quite another matter. Laws which are not enforced (and will not be enforced) aren't real laws.
      - natermer 10y ago
        They are when it's done entirely for the purpose of having friendly trade relations with the USA. That's one of the benefits of running a country like the USA. The USA market is so desirable to participate in that they can black mail countries all over the world to adopt your IP laws despite the fact that (if it wasn't for the lure of USA markets) it is entirely against their best interest to do so.
        smallnamespace 10y ago
        Yup, every country is anti-IP when it's behind the technology curve and pro-IP when it's ahead. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-propelled-the-u-s-industrial-revolution https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-02-01/piracy-an... "The first U.S. Patent Act encouraged this policy. Although the law safeguarded domestic inventors, it didn’t extend the same courtesy to foreign ones -- they couldn’t obtain a U.S. patent on an invention they had previously patented in Europe. In practice, this meant one could steal a foreign invention, smuggle it to the U.S., and develop it for domestic commercial applications without fear of legal reprisal."
sfifs 10y ago
I believe you underestimate the speed at which large scale manufacturing economies go from copying to innovating. It takes less than a generation historically if you look at Japan and Korea. In mid 60s, Japanese products were second rate. By early 80s American and European manufacturers were inferior. China has been at it for a couple of decades now. From personal observation, in mobile tech at least, China are a few years ahead already of the West and Japan in terms of usage and convenience. Why won't they pull ahead in other fields as well?
- dragontamer 10y ago
  While I agree with you in principle, your application is wrong. IMO, China's innovation is in large-scale PCBs and other such manufacturing. See Apple's investment of CNC machines in China as an example. China has several other innovations that does in fact make them a world leader in certain fields. As far as battery tech goes however, Japan has that on lockdown. Panasonic's Silicon-Lithium batteries are light-years ahead of the competition, even as US battery manufacturers (A123 systems) try to break through. Japan (and Panasonic really: now that Panasonic owns Sanyo / Eneloop) has all of the major high-quality battery manufacturing facilities: Energizer, Duracell, Panasonic (owner of Sanyo / Eneloop). Korea has the next best bet as far as I can tell. LG Chem's batteries were chosen by GM probably for some reason. If China were to be making good batteries, then we'd first see some manufacturing companies make some batteries. Most "top-down grown" companies, be in the USA or China, fall flat on their face for the first few decades. It takes a long time to build up expertise. ------------- There's no reason why China can't grow into a battery powerhouse. Except for the fact that Panasonic is so massive.
  - natermer 10y ago
    China's innovation is being able to adopt their society rapidly for adopting new technologies in general. Tolerating the violating of foreigner's IP laws, which stand in the way of progress, is one of the things that helped enable their success. Right now China has progressed to the point were things that are done by the Chinese simply cannot be duplicated anywhere else on the planet. It's not just a matter of scaling their production... They are simply the only game in town. You CANNOT do what they do in China anywhere else. It's no longer a issue of cheap labor. They have innovated their way past their competitors in USA and Europe. The part where China falls short is quality control. In the mad rush to produce goods at the cheapest price possible they habitually cut corners and undermine their own foreign markets. When USA and European companies use China to produce high quality goods they just have to have people on-site to ensure quality and use robust post-production testing. Otherwise things tend to go sideways. Right now places like Japan, Germany, and Korea have a slight end in quality, but for most purposes it's a wash. The biggest threat to the Chinese economy is their own government policies spiraling the place into a massive depression. It's worth noting that Panasonic does a lot of it's lithium battery manufacturing in China.
raverbashing 10y ago
Oh you mean like Edison's film projector?
- HillaryBriss 10y ago
  Yes, please. Let's hear the story. Who invented Edison's film projector?
natermer 10y ago
If people didn't 'steal' technology then we wouldn't have technology.
ThomPete 10y ago
The story is a little different. As far as I remember the Chinese battery makers started doing cheap copies of known brands but because they were constantly looking for new ways to improve profitability and weren't being regulated by more strict european or american labor laws, soon developed better and better production methods while increasing the quality of their products and soon found themselves selling to some of the larger European car manufactorer. I will see if I can dig up the story it's been a while and was in some radio program.

I can't help but wonder how much of that technology is stolen.

by Mizza 10y ago

I can't help but wonder how much of that technology is stolen.

The US steals talent, say Chinese graduate students. They steal the results of that stolen talent. You can justify anything if you put your mind to it.

fspeech 10y ago
The article clearly stated: "TDK separated from CATL to focus on batteries for mobile consumer electronics, but still collects royalties on some intellectual property used by CATL, a spokesman for the Japanese company said." Is there any justification to call a company paying royalty for technology "stealing"?
- devoply 10y ago
  There could be justification, as licensing some tech does not mean you are licensing all tech that you are using. At the end of the day it's a question about reputation. The Chinese have a reputation of not respecting the property rights of Western companies. And for good reason, because how else are you going to get ahead?
mattnewton 10y ago
You can't steal talent, only offer them a better life. (For the record I don't know enough to see if there is any "stealing" of ip going on here either)
golergka 10y ago
You can only steal property. Is that what you consider graduate students to be?

Hondor 10y ago

IP that's taken out of the jurisdiction where it's theft is illegal isn't really stolen. It's not like stealing a TV where the person who used to own it loses it. The reason it causes a problem is that the customs aren't strict enough banning the import of goods made with illegal IP use.

dispose13432 10y ago
Is it that China doesn't have IP laws, or is it that China is lax in enforcing IP laws? In other words, if Samsung will steal IP from a favorite "Chinese" company, will China says "fair is fair" or will it fine them through the nose.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  China of course has IP laws, since they're a signatory to international conventions like the Berne Convention. Enforcement is quite another matter. As for whether they would overlook foreign companies infringing on domestic IP -- would depend very much on the particular companies and countries involved. Fining a foreign company always has a political component that the Chinese authorities are much more sensitive to, than, say, a Western court.
  - dispose13432 10y ago
    >China of course has IP laws, since they're a signatory to international conventions like the Berne Convention. Enforcement is quite another matter. Laws which are not enforced (and will not be enforced) aren't real laws.
    - natermer 10y ago
      They are when it's done entirely for the purpose of having friendly trade relations with the USA. That's one of the benefits of running a country like the USA. The USA market is so desirable to participate in that they can black mail countries all over the world to adopt your IP laws despite the fact that (if it wasn't for the lure of USA markets) it is entirely against their best interest to do so.
      - smallnamespace 10y ago
        Yup, every country is anti-IP when it's behind the technology curve and pro-IP when it's ahead. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-propelled-the-u-s-industrial-revolution https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-02-01/piracy-an... "The first U.S. Patent Act encouraged this policy. Although the law safeguarded domestic inventors, it didn’t extend the same courtesy to foreign ones -- they couldn’t obtain a U.S. patent on an invention they had previously patented in Europe. In practice, this meant one could steal a foreign invention, smuggle it to the U.S., and develop it for domestic commercial applications without fear of legal reprisal."

sfifs 10y ago

I believe you underestimate the speed at which large scale manufacturing economies go from copying to innovating. It takes less than a generation historically if you look at Japan and Korea. In mid 60s, Japanese products were second rate. By early 80s American and European manufacturers were inferior. China has been at it for a couple of decades now. From personal observation, in mobile tech at least, China are a few years ahead already of the West and Japan in terms of usage and convenience. Why won't they pull ahead in other fields as well?

dragontamer 10y ago
While I agree with you in principle, your application is wrong. IMO, China's innovation is in large-scale PCBs and other such manufacturing. See Apple's investment of CNC machines in China as an example. China has several other innovations that does in fact make them a world leader in certain fields. As far as battery tech goes however, Japan has that on lockdown. Panasonic's Silicon-Lithium batteries are light-years ahead of the competition, even as US battery manufacturers (A123 systems) try to break through. Japan (and Panasonic really: now that Panasonic owns Sanyo / Eneloop) has all of the major high-quality battery manufacturing facilities: Energizer, Duracell, Panasonic (owner of Sanyo / Eneloop). Korea has the next best bet as far as I can tell. LG Chem's batteries were chosen by GM probably for some reason. If China were to be making good batteries, then we'd first see some manufacturing companies make some batteries. Most "top-down grown" companies, be in the USA or China, fall flat on their face for the first few decades. It takes a long time to build up expertise. ------------- There's no reason why China can't grow into a battery powerhouse. Except for the fact that Panasonic is so massive.
- natermer 10y ago
  China's innovation is being able to adopt their society rapidly for adopting new technologies in general. Tolerating the violating of foreigner's IP laws, which stand in the way of progress, is one of the things that helped enable their success. Right now China has progressed to the point were things that are done by the Chinese simply cannot be duplicated anywhere else on the planet. It's not just a matter of scaling their production... They are simply the only game in town. You CANNOT do what they do in China anywhere else. It's no longer a issue of cheap labor. They have innovated their way past their competitors in USA and Europe. The part where China falls short is quality control. In the mad rush to produce goods at the cheapest price possible they habitually cut corners and undermine their own foreign markets. When USA and European companies use China to produce high quality goods they just have to have people on-site to ensure quality and use robust post-production testing. Otherwise things tend to go sideways. Right now places like Japan, Germany, and Korea have a slight end in quality, but for most purposes it's a wash. The biggest threat to the Chinese economy is their own government policies spiraling the place into a massive depression. It's worth noting that Panasonic does a lot of it's lithium battery manufacturing in China.

raverbashing 10y ago

Oh you mean like Edison's film projector?

HillaryBriss 10y ago
Yes, please. Let's hear the story. Who invented Edison's film projector?

natermer 10y ago

If people didn't 'steal' technology then we wouldn't have technology.

ThomPete 10y ago

The story is a little different. As far as I remember the Chinese battery makers started doing cheap copies of known brands but because they were constantly looking for new ways to improve profitability and weren't being regulated by more strict european or american labor laws, soon developed better and better production methods while increasing the quality of their products and soon found themselves selling to some of the larger European car manufactorer. I will see if I can dig up the story it's been a while and was in some radio program.