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FYI, The technology detailed on that page is governed by ITAR for US citizens. You can end up facing some serious penalties if you are a US citizen and build a

by iaw 10y ago

FYI, The technology detailed on that page is governed by ITAR for US citizens. You can end up facing some serious penalties if you are a US citizen and build a GPS receiver (capable of operating > 10,000 feet) for someone in another country.

mikeyouse 10y ago
They relaxed the ITAR restrictions on GPS quite a bit a few years ago. The new rules only involve decryption of the precise positioning signals, steerable antennas designed to avoid jamming, and GPS designed as missile guidance technology (ability to deliver 500kg payload at least 300km). http://www.insidegnss.com/node/4051 http://www.insidegnss.com/node/4051
- LeifCarrotson 10y ago
  Additionally, the previous restrictions specified they were to be inoperable when BOTH above 18,000m altitude (not 10,000 ft) AND 515 m/s velocity. Many manufacturers accomplished this by restricting operation when either condition was sensed, but you could find some that could be used in applications that only violated one condition, like high-altitude balloons.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    So does that mean my phone's GPS won't work in flight on a commercial jetliner? (never tried it).
    - fnj 10y ago
      Commercial jetliners never fly at 18,000 m (nor at 515 m/s). Max is about 11,000 m or so, and about 250 m/s. It would be interesting to know if consumer GPS ever worked aboard the Concorde.
      - knz 10y ago
        If you're going to use the Concorde for a speed test then you might as well also test the SR-71. For..er... science!
        DiabloD3 10y ago
        The story: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/favorite-sr-71-story-1079127041 http://oppositelock.kinja.com/favorite-sr-71-story-107912704... Merry Christmas to everyone who hasn't read it yet.
        sitic 10y ago
        This one is my favorite story from the same Blackbird pilot (Brian Shul): https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2q2ctc/til_that_the_sr71_blackbird_was_so_fast_that_a/cn26i0z/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2q2ctc/til_t... Bonus story, also from Brian Shul: https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/1mimvu/80000_ft_where_the_wild_blue_yonder_meets_the/cc9ze0p/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/1mimvu/80000_...
    - 13of40 10y ago
      A couple of years back my kid got the GPS working on his Windows phone, using some 3rd party app that cut through all of the other location detection crap. We were able to track our speed and location in a passenger jet flying out of Maui.
    - anticodon 10y ago
      You can use offline GPS navigation software on a plane. I did it several times, just as my friends. I use LG G3 and OsmAnd app. LG G3 has very poor GPS antenna so you have to press the phone against the plane window and wait for 4-5 minutes before it finds sufficient number of sattelites.
      - 4ad 10y ago
        If you take pictures from the air with an iPhone, they will be geotagged. When you land and you get internet back, they will be labeled correctly in Photos.app. Other phones had trouble finding GPS signal in airplanes, but I never had a problem with my iPhone 6s or iPhone 7.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  > The new rules only involve decryption of the precise positioning signals, steerable antennas designed to avoid jamming, and GPS designed as missile guidance technology (ability to deliver 500kg payload at least 300km). Now I want to publish all of that info in a book and distribute it world wide, a la PGP Philip Zimmerman style. ITAR...Pssssha!
  - brian-armstrong 10y ago
    Somehow the potential repercussions for this feel worse - your information could be used to guide actual missiles against people. I know you can make similar arguments with encryption but at least that can't deliver explosive payloads by itself
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      I doubt that's going to be a vector compared to driving a truck into a Christmas market. Encryption is far more dangerous than precision positioning, but it should still be freely available.
avar 10y ago
Do these ITAR restrictions only apply to GPS, or also GLONASS / Galileo etc.?
- nradov 10y ago
  The ITAR regulations apply to any type of satellite navigation. The speed and altitude restrictions were removed in 2014. https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS_FRDOC_0001-3863 https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS_FRDOC_0001-3863 https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS-2014-0017-0001 https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS-2014-0017-0001
jrockway 10y ago
Is there any case law on this subject? Instructions for building a GPS receiver (which is what source code is) seems like a logical extension of Bernstein v. US.

by iaw 10y ago

mikeyouse 10y ago

They relaxed the ITAR restrictions on GPS quite a bit a few years ago. The new rules only involve decryption of the precise positioning signals, steerable antennas designed to avoid jamming, and GPS designed as missile guidance technology (ability to deliver 500kg payload at least 300km). http://www.insidegnss.com/node/4051 http://www.insidegnss.com/node/4051

LeifCarrotson 10y ago
Additionally, the previous restrictions specified they were to be inoperable when BOTH above 18,000m altitude (not 10,000 ft) AND 515 m/s velocity. Many manufacturers accomplished this by restricting operation when either condition was sensed, but you could find some that could be used in applications that only violated one condition, like high-altitude balloons.
- ams6110 10y ago
  So does that mean my phone's GPS won't work in flight on a commercial jetliner? (never tried it).
  - fnj 10y ago
    Commercial jetliners never fly at 18,000 m (nor at 515 m/s). Max is about 11,000 m or so, and about 250 m/s. It would be interesting to know if consumer GPS ever worked aboard the Concorde.
    - knz 10y ago
      If you're going to use the Concorde for a speed test then you might as well also test the SR-71. For..er... science!
      - DiabloD3 10y ago
        The story: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/favorite-sr-71-story-1079127041 http://oppositelock.kinja.com/favorite-sr-71-story-107912704... Merry Christmas to everyone who hasn't read it yet.
        sitic 10y ago
        This one is my favorite story from the same Blackbird pilot (Brian Shul): https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2q2ctc/til_that_the_sr71_blackbird_was_so_fast_that_a/cn26i0z/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2q2ctc/til_t... Bonus story, also from Brian Shul: https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/1mimvu/80000_ft_where_the_wild_blue_yonder_meets_the/cc9ze0p/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/1mimvu/80000_...
  - 13of40 10y ago
    A couple of years back my kid got the GPS working on his Windows phone, using some 3rd party app that cut through all of the other location detection crap. We were able to track our speed and location in a passenger jet flying out of Maui.
  - anticodon 10y ago
    You can use offline GPS navigation software on a plane. I did it several times, just as my friends. I use LG G3 and OsmAnd app. LG G3 has very poor GPS antenna so you have to press the phone against the plane window and wait for 4-5 minutes before it finds sufficient number of sattelites.
    - 4ad 10y ago
      If you take pictures from the air with an iPhone, they will be geotagged. When you land and you get internet back, they will be labeled correctly in Photos.app. Other phones had trouble finding GPS signal in airplanes, but I never had a problem with my iPhone 6s or iPhone 7.
toomuchtodo 10y ago
> The new rules only involve decryption of the precise positioning signals, steerable antennas designed to avoid jamming, and GPS designed as missile guidance technology (ability to deliver 500kg payload at least 300km). Now I want to publish all of that info in a book and distribute it world wide, a la PGP Philip Zimmerman style. ITAR...Pssssha!
- brian-armstrong 10y ago
  Somehow the potential repercussions for this feel worse - your information could be used to guide actual missiles against people. I know you can make similar arguments with encryption but at least that can't deliver explosive payloads by itself
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I doubt that's going to be a vector compared to driving a truck into a Christmas market. Encryption is far more dangerous than precision positioning, but it should still be freely available.

avar 10y ago

Do these ITAR restrictions only apply to GPS, or also GLONASS / Galileo etc.?

nradov 10y ago
The ITAR regulations apply to any type of satellite navigation. The speed and altitude restrictions were removed in 2014. https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS_FRDOC_0001-3863 https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS_FRDOC_0001-3863 https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS-2014-0017-0001 https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOS-2014-0017-0001

jrockway 10y ago

Is there any case law on this subject? Instructions for building a GPS receiver (which is what source code is) seems like a logical extension of Bernstein v. US.