6 ms·
The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity, so I began to read the article. It's been a long ..year...and I am super tired, so I am not goi
by Mz 10y ago
The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity, so I began to read the article. It's been a long ..year...and I am super tired, so I am not going to manage to actually read the whole thing.
But, I was one of the top three students of my graduating high school class and I turned down a National Merit Scholarship to one of the top two universities of my home state. I think I made the right call and I think I understand the impetus behind the writing of this article.
In a nutshell, if education is empowering, but pursuing that education actually narrows your life choices, then perhaps there is some flaw somewhere. For people who go to Ivy League schools, most of them can only imagine rabidly pursuing the next rung on the career ladder and this may come at great personal cost.
I was in my late 40s before I really understood how incredibly upper class my mother's values are. We didn't have much money when I was a kid -- or so I thought, though it turns out that is not as accurate as I believed at the time -- and I never thought of myself as upper class.
It took me a lot of years of intentionally walking away from this deeply rooted expectation in order to really reclaim my life for myself in a way that allows me to get what I want, not for me to become what society expects me to be.
So while I get that most people are not going to understand that there is a genuine cost involved and will simply sneer at the idea that there is any down side, as someone who recognized that downside at a young age and walked away, I will say that the ability "to not be rich" is, in fact, a choice not psychologically available to many upper class people and it does harm them and it does definitely harm their ability to be good leaders for the common man.
- feedjoelpie 10y agoThis is a stupid reply that has nothing to do with the topic: I had the NMS myself, and I'm assuming some college was going to give you an extra kicker since it's portable. Do you mind sharing which colleges? I'm weirdly curious because while I didn't go to an known elite school, I turned down a full ride to an out-of-state state school (for NMS winners) to go to a private school. So like, kind of the opposite of you. But I also probably didn't fully understand the options.
- Mz 10y agoAs far as I know, my scholarship was not portable. It was specifically for one university and when I failed to attend, no, I did not get to keep my scholarship. No one gave me an extra kicker. I turned my scholarship down for personal reasons, not because I was bought out by some competing school.
- gnicholas 10y agoAt the time when I was in the NMS pipeline, if you listed a school that you wanted to attend when you took the PSAT/NMSQT, that school would give you the scholarship if you became a finalist. The best idea was to say "undecided" and to maintain the ability to designate any school once committed. My older brother learned this the hard way—he listed a school (October of junior year) that he decided (April of senior year) not to attend. He lost the $8k in scholarship money that he could have gotten from the school he attended—which he could have gotten had he responded "undecided".
- Mz 10y agoI am 51. Age 17 was long ago and far away. I have no idea how it worked.
- gnicholas 10y agoYeah, my experience is now 20 years old, but it looks like (to your sibling comments' point) the NMS amount has only gone up a little in that time—to $10k. Meanwhile, tuition+fees (at least at my alma mater) has gone up by over 75% during that time.
- douche 10y ago8 grand is, sadly, almost become insignificant in the long run with most colleges.
- smelterdemon 10y agoIIRC (circa 2009/2010) only certain schools are sponsors, where you are guaranteed the award. Some portion of finalists are awarded the scholarship from the National Merit program itself that can be used anywhere.
- nimchimpsky 10y ago"the ability "to not be rich" is, in fact, a choice" Yeah but thats a choice, whereas being poor is enforced. Thats why an elite education is an advantage. The article is horrible self indulgent drivel ... "you incapable of talking to people who aren’t like you". They think going to a shitty school teaches you how to talk to everyone?
- phamilton 10y ago> a choice not psychologically available I feel like you missed his argument by about 3 words.
- jayd16 10y agoIts a difference between possibly not seeing a choice and not having a choice.
- sAuronas 10y agoWell said... sometimes choosing to be poor brings more wealth: the world-class, millionaire skateboarder comes to mind. I would have preferred the "narrowing" of an elite Stanford education myself. Still trying to escape my State Schoolitis.
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- buzzybee 10y agoYour last paragraph is most crucial to being sympathetic towards this article, as most of the comments here have fallen into "damn the man" raving. If you're in the position of having elite status thrust upon you, it's generally in everyone's interest that you actually be good at that, and not just told that you're good at it because you followed the rules. We must assume that most people, most of the time, regardless of their apparent status or agency, are not strong-willed philosophers, but prisoners to scripted expectations and obligations. We will all try to avoid struggle and have it easy, and in doing so condemn ourselves to the life of the living dead by staying in an ever-diminishing comfort zone. And for someone who is in this state to step into a role with great power and then coast along without vision or direction - well, that sure does describe a lot of people!
- jseliger 10y agoThe remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity The other day I read a comment observing that commenters here have an almost Pavlovian response that compels them to disagree with the article. That seems right to me. A while ago I wrote this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12300542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12300542, which touches on similar themes.
- gravypod 10y agoI'd rather see remarks disagreeing rather then bobbing heads at every topic.
- WhatIsDukkha 10y agoThe problem is that broadly the disagreements are so shallow. People bounce off a word choice or something in the first paragraph then either stop reading or skim.... then post about it.
- Mz 10y agoMeaty discussion is not really served by either approach.
- zmj 10y agoPeople who agree don't post. It's why online communities tend towards contrarian, which tends towards crackpot.
- edblarney 10y agoIf you didn't know you were 'upper class' then you were definitely not, although I grasp what you are saying. 'Upper class' means generational wealth and status, your grandfather was wealthy, a diplomat, and admiral, head of a large multinational, and you can trace your lineage back at least 8 generations, and likely back to before you were even Americans ... your family has had status for that long. But yes - some people have 'high standards of behaviour', are genteel, polite, articulate, conscientious, well mannered etc. but don't have a lot of money. Many upper-middle class, even middle class types were like this just a generation and a half ago. I suggest fewer people are exactly that now, as the mores of society have shifted quite a lot in many ways.
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- Mz 10y agoMy mother's mother was from a low level noble family. The family sold the title. Or so I have been told.
- spc476 10y agoUm ... my family has been tracked back to John "Tuscarora Jack" Barnwell (came to the colonies in 1701---https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barnwell_(colonist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barnwell_(colonist)) but I'm not "upper class" my any means. I'm not sure what you meant by that.
- edblarney 10y agoThat you can trace your lineage, does not mean you are 'upper class'. But 'upper class' people can usually trace their lineage quite far back. Everybody in the upper class definitely knows they are in the upper class. It's not a 'revelation' you get when you are an adult. Likely quite a few people think they are in the upper class and really are not. I'm going by classical definition here, not the 'new world' American version of upper class, which is usually just economic.
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- douche 10y agoThe ability to not be rich strikes me as the position of someone who is very privileged to start with. Po' folk don't have to opportunity to choose to not be rich, they just have to do the best they can with the hand they are dealt.
- pyre 10y agoThat's exactly what she said though: > I will say that the ability "to not be rich" is, in fact, a choice not psychologically available to many upper class people (emphasis mine)
- dahart 10y agoThat is not the same thing at all. There's a vast chasm between not possible because you don't have the money and not phychologically available because you can't imagine lowering your standards. For one, the argument that rich people can't bring themselves to do it might be true, but is a broad generalization that is speculating about the mental state of other people. The argument that when you don't have the money, you don't get to choose to not have the money, that is a tautology, it's 100% guaranteed.
- bcoates 10y agoIt's not physically possible either. It's a pretty common affectation of trust fund kids that they can just pretend to be normal, but it's just play-acting or maybe economic tourism. The song "Common People" describes how it turns out: "But still you'll never get it right / 'cos when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the wall / If you call your Dad he could stop it all."
- throwawayblues 10y agoI studied engineering at Cornell. We had a diverse student body, and this article is just one person's experience. For me, I had a great conversation with my plumber. Clever trick: he stores the snaker in an old tire so he can just roll it around. For my business, the advantage is initial credibility to customers, but there's so much work beyond that. The software has to be useful, the sales process has to be navigated, and the customer has to be trained and supported. I've realized life is what I make of it. If I want to converse with my plumber, then we will have a great conversation. If I find building a business fulfilling, then I will build a business. Cornell didn't teach me to do these things; Cornell also didn't teach me not to do these things. We had a diverse student body: this is how I think, and it's different from the author.
- elcritch 10y agoI've had several friends study at Cornell, undergrad and grad level. They all have seemed to be pretty open and approachable. Based on personal anecdotes it'd seem Cornell is one of the better Ivy Leagues for not completely falling into the mentality mentioned in the article. Good to hear there are more sensible Ivy League engineering folks, much less just engineering folks, who can have a conversation with a non-tech person.
- Hydraulix989 10y agoEngineering is much more of a blue collar profession than say, private equity. Many of my classmates, like myself, came from the midwest, and we studied engineering because we love what we do, not for the money.
- kurthr 10y agoIt seems like the real problem is: For people who go to Ivy League schools, most of them can only imagine rabidly pursuing the next rung on the career ladder The key to me, is that they have a choice then and have choices later in life... you can learn to be not_rich=middle_class at a lot of different times in your life. Many of them will make you unhappy. Perhaps it's a bit worse going to an Ivy League where everyone else is the same, but you could say that about staying in the same state, or joining the military (which has many different people, but an enforced culture).