19 ms·

How Social Isolation Is Killing Us

395 points by e15ctr0n 10y ago

pg_is_a_butt 10y ago
you're all idiots.
conistonwater 10y ago
I like the article, but I gotta ask: why the focus on "new research"? Is "old research" not good enough? I suppose it might not be, but some of it should really be at least brought up. Here's a book from 1974 [1] by Robert Weiss, whose first (sample) chapter [2] reads very similar to the NYTimes piece, and covers many of the same issues, even before the internet was around. In particular, it draws the line (much more clearly than the NYTimes piece) between what it calls loneliness of emotional isolation and loneliness of social isolation, and, to me, its examples like the condition of married couples who moved far away are much more salient (and convincing) than reliance on surveys and dry statements like "loneliness can accelerate cognitive decline" and "increases risk of heart disease by 29%". Am I missing something? P.S. One cool thing I learned about from reading about Cacioppo's research is that when designing a survey about loneliness you can't ask questions like "do you feel lonely?" because it's much too ambiguous and people end up giving incoherent useless answers. I never thought something so basic could be so confusing to people. [1] https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/loneliness https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/loneliness [2] https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/9780262730419_sch_0001.pdf https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/...
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Right. It's not an issue of technology, for the most part, but it's the way American cities are designed. Instead of mixed-use walkable neighborhoods where people with a variety of incomes and backgrounds live, and stay put, we have suburban fortresses where people live in a box, never talk to their neighbors, drive a box to work, work in a box, then do it all over again. The national highway system was great for a nation on the brink of all-out war. We needed to move troops, tanks, people, supplies quickly and efficiently. This system ended up being used to separate black people from working class whites. Naturally we have drug and violence problems in those communities that were segregated from the more educated and affluent white population. Terrible. I wish I could be governor or something and make sure that we stop this. It makes me sad.
  - winter_blue 10y ago
    You could get involved in local politics, and maybe eventually even run for governor. Is there anything stopping you?
    - bluejekyll 10y ago
      Exactly. If you want this stuff to change, stop waiting for others to do it, you can get involved and start changing things.
    - muninn_ 10y ago
      Yes. I have a high-paying job, a mortgage, and although I'm personable I don't see any starting point or path toward doing anything about it.
      - Frondo 10y ago
        Volunteer with your preferred local political party. The path to getting into politics can start as easily as showing up until people know you, and having good ideas that enough people agree with. Your job as a politician would be to carry those ideas to the structures of power (town council, school board, whatever). It's pretty time-consuming, but it's a big responsibility, making decisions that affect lots of people's lives. So, trade-offs.
        zeroer 10y ago
        Another reason not to do so is that it's a high-risk, low-reward endeavor.
  - arkitaip 10y ago
    We city apartment people aren't better at socializing with our neighbors, probably even worse. The stereotype that cities can be harsh and unfriendly is very much rooted in reality.
    - k-mcgrady 10y ago
- cableshaft 10y ago
  Older research is generally given less credence than newer research because of certain assumptions which may or may not be accurate: * That the researchers looked into previous research, examined those results, and are either replicating them (thus adding extra evidence to those hypothesis), or have found some sort of flaw in how the research was gathered. * That the researches have, in their research, looked into multiple previous studies, including the old one you referenced, and synthesized them all for their new research. * It's often been shown that older research studies are flawed in some way, especially in certain fields, such as nutrition, so older studies should be held suspect (really the newer studies should be held with just as much skepticism, but they never are) Again, the assumptions that this is done is not necessarily what happened in reality, but without media or laypeople doing their own research into things (and neither have time for that), it's usually a useful greedy heuristic to assume newer research is better and more accurate than older research.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  >'I gotta ask: why the focus on "new research"?' I think this passage is key, I had not heard this postulated before: "New research suggests that loneliness is not necessarily the result of poor social skills or lack of social support, but can be caused in part by unusual sensitivity to social cues. Lonely people are more likely to perceive ambiguous social cues negatively, and enter a self-preservation mind-set — worsening the problem."
  - TheRealDunkirk 10y ago
    Totally agree. I think the internet and social media have just exacerbated the existing problem that society is fracturing into countless splinter groups, with no tolerance for any of the others' views, and it's really difficult to find and keep up with those handful of people you can actually tolerate enough to keep a close social bond with. I don't think that it takes a degree in sociology, or a controlled study, to see this happening. As for WHY, my own, personal theory is that "we" (the US) came together to support the war effort in the forties in a way that the world had never experienced before or since, and it's all been a snowballing disassociation since, made worse as a reaction TO the perceived stifling effect of the dominant societal norm of that day.
    - bendoernberg 10y ago
      FWIW communities coming together in times of emergency is a pretty universal experience, not unique to the US in the 1940's (the UK's home front experience during WW2 [1] is cited as an example most often I think). A book I've been meaning to read for a while is "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit. From the Washington Post review [2]: "Her book is worth reading for its storytelling alone. But what makes it even more fascinating is Solnit's demonstration that disasters give rise to small, temporary utopias in which the best of human nature emerges and a remarkable spirit of generosity and cooperation takes over. 'Disaster,' she writes, 'along with moments of social upheaval, is when the shackles of conventional belief and role fall away and the possibilities open up.' People suffering unimaginable misfortune often revert not to savagery but to an almost beatific selflessness, comforting themselves in extremis by aiding others. Solnit cites many examples of those who remember a disaster as, paradoxically, one of the great moments of their lives. The reaction is similar to that of some who recall the Great Depression as a time of spiritual and social richness." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_front_during_World_War_II#Britain_and_Commonwealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_front_during_World_War_II... [2] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101111.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08...
- mtw 10y ago
  It's because loneliness is much more prevalent now than in 1974. It's no longer exotic but a condition sometimes voluntarily chosen and supported by modern technologies in 2016. Also we used to think that heart disease risk is mostly tied to diet and exercise. But it's still the #1 killer in the United States. So every protective or risk factor needs to be considered. As such, new research linking heart disease, CVD, CHD to loneliness, friendship or marriage is interesting. And It doesn't stop there. Loneliness is also tied to breast cancer, lymphoma and obesity : http://outcomereference.com/causes/59 http://outcomereference.com/causes/59
  - gragas 10y ago
    That's not to say that loneliness causes those things. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that lonely people are more likely to be depressed and sedentary. Many diseases follow from being depressed and sedentary.
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    My folks were Silent Generation,and I think we're a lot less lonely than they were. And face it, I like being alone. I haven't felt lonely since college, and I think that was mostly performance anxiety.
- EGreg 10y ago
  Or Putnam's "Bowling Alone"
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    That was an excellent book. It was also a prescient book as it predates social media and the smart phone.
- Chathamization 10y ago
  I think that been undergoing a number of changes - including (but not limited to) the increase in urbanization (moving away from close small communities), increase in movement (relatives spread across the country/globe), increase in secularism (decrease in religious communities), and more access to personal entertainment (see the end of the Chautauqua movement), that have definitely caused us to be more isolated and have less of a sense of community. We are still trying to adapt to - or even be aware of - the changes we have been undergoing and the implications of it. It seems like a sense of community is extremely important for a society, particularly with the connection there seems to be between community and happiness (my understanding is that much of the happiness that religious people get is from the community, for example). Still, I haven't seen a great idea as to how one can be fostered (though there are some decent ideas about what you as an individual can do to get a better sense).
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  > Is "old research" not good enough? Indeed.. while waiting for the new research to come out, read Marcus Aurelius, Erich Fromm and Hannah Arendt. Maybe throw in some Roman and Greek classics. That should "help a bit". The problem isn't that we don't know how to live well and healthy and sleep soundly, it's that we want to be healthy and sleep soundly without living that way. We don't want to be simply just and honest and go from there. Well, joke's on us, the truth remains where it is, waiting for dithering people to stop being scared of it.
- vonnik 10y ago
  > why the focus on "new research"? Is "old research" not good enough? Because the NYT is a newspaper and they need a reason to publish a news article. This is known as a "hook." The hook in cases like this will be something new being published. It's hard to hook readers by announcing: What we've known since the 1970s still holds true. Just doesn't work.
  - ianai 10y ago
    Yep, same reason Taylor Swift has so many breakup songs. They sell. The NYT has so many words to push per release and they have to come from a variety of topics.
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aschearer 10y ago
If you find this interesting you may enjoy The Village Effect[1] by Susan Pinker. It's a more in-depth look at this phenomenon. If social isolation is as deadly as smoking or not exercising, should we approach the problem with a similar level of seriousness? Maybe we need "social exercise" three times a week, and if we aren't getting it naturally should contrive a way to get it much like going to the gym. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18167005-the-village-effect https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18167005-the-village-eff...
brilliantcode 10y ago
Social isolation is a huge problem. There's stigma around declaring it. I'm doing my part to address this problem right now: Any HN'ers in downtown Vancouver reading this post, let's grab coffee near Robson Square. My email is in my profile and synced to my phone so I will reply promptly. I've been just reading principles.com (from the other HN thread) and inspired to take action.
- finid 10y ago
  To some extent, Meetups help. It's not just an opportunity to hear about the latest in a filed that you have an interest in, but also an avenue to meet-and-greet.
  - brilliantcode 10y ago
    I always found Meetups impersonal and difficult to socialize in large crowds due to my debilating social anxiety. Btw, nobody showed up yesterday but I haven't given up. I'm here from 9am ~ 5pm near Robson Square. Coffee (or tea) is on me. If you are not in Vancouver then shoot me an email, you can talk about anything.
    - matt101589 10y ago
      I found Meetup to be the same way for me. So I'm starting something that allows you to limit how many people can join and have the option to create plans without needing a Meetup Group. Check it out TheCoopApp.com and let me know what you think.
      - brilliantcode 10y ago
        interesting idea. is this native or pwa?
        matt101589 10y ago
        pwa
noobermin 10y ago
Often times, admitting loneliness makes one look "needy" or "desperate" and even less desirable for a friendly relationship. It's almost a catch-22.
mmanfrin 10y ago
We are pack animals, it is why dogs evolved in to our family. Isolation is a severance from our natural social state and is hurtful. I think one of the great benefits of the internet is that it is possible to meet and befriend people outside of the normal social routes. It is not a cure for isolation, but friends you game with or chat with or share stupid stories with is a help. The problem is that reddit and digg killed the conventional forum, so no one really cares who you are any more (unlike when people would start to 'know' regular posters on forums). Now it's a crapshoot of random people and a smattering of comment replies if people vote on your comment. No personality, no real interaction.
- paulpauper 10y ago
  traditional forums still exist the problem with reddit is that there is too much news, outrage, and hype there.
  - mmanfrin 10y ago
    They still exist, but they have been dying. There are a few niche forums that still hold on to users, but the proliferation of subreddits leaks people away. I visit no forums today, whereas when I grew up it was a majority of my online-life.
    - no_wizard 10y ago
      I agree with this wholly. I used to play chess on a service called FICS and it had a decent social scene in some ways for someone who was growing up geek in a town that wasn't really giving avenues for it (I grew up in the rural Midwest...it's no rural south but it's not great either) I went back recently and it's usershio is wwaaaay down
      - sirclueless 10y ago
        Well, I think like every other loosely federated communication system from the 90s (except email), the scene has moved on to a couple proprietary platforms providing a better user experience. lichess.org and chess.com have pretty good scenes now, and you can still make friends there.
TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
I have been "lonely" most of my life. I have lived in a terrible town growing up where everyone lived on the other side of town. I went to college where nothing was happening and nothing is really interesting and I didn't connect with anyone really. Now, I am reaching 30, and have spent the most of my 20s trying to find a way to move to a place that will make me happy. I'm hoping this will eventually happen, but I have lost a lot of hope. I don't feel connected to humans whatsoever. However, the greatest joy for me is sitting in front of my computer interacting with you folk. I don't get social interaction...
- edpichler 10y ago
  Man, could I give an advice to you? Don't expect too much from other people, and try you to create "events" and invite some people, with similar interests, to join with you. Don't worry about the "no"s you will receive, pay attention to the "yes". The change start on you. This works for me.
  - TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
    I mean I still try and I give more than I receive for sure, but nothing seems to be working. For the first half of my 20s I didn't leave the house under the assumption that, "if I work hard, I can live where I want to and find a job in a cool place. No reason to make friends now." I have since replaced that assumption, but it's hard to find meaningful relationships in a place you despise.
    - soneca 10y ago
      Do you despise all people living in the place you live now? Take this lightly, but I bet you can find at least one more person that "despises" your place and you can discuss that with them. :)
      - TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
        I will say that my limited connections comes from mutual hate and not mutual interests. Not sure if that is good or bad.
theideasmith 10y ago
It is very important this research was shared. However, the very difficult and likely impossible part is to actually change the emotional and interpersonal ethos of society. Given the very intangible nature of the problem, no one in power will care enough to initiate a national program to motivate such social change. Therefore, it must come from us, the people. We ought to stand to the call and do something of value to nudge society towards a more interactive state.
paulpauper 10y ago
imho the problem is more to do with boredom and unfulfillment than isolation
FrancoDiaz 10y ago
To know your dying, and to have no one in your life is a very scary place to be in.
- mistermann 10y ago
  Not as bad, but it's scary even if you aren't dying.
- shorttime 10y ago
  Why's that? Nobody will be sad when you do so there's that silver lining.
bvinc 10y ago
I think it's valuable to think about this problem from an evolutionary perspective. Almost every problem we have can be viewed this way. We should be asking ourselves how we were living 100,000 years ago. This is what our bodies and our brains are expecting. The whole concept of the nuclear family and a house and a fence is a completely foreign concept to our bodies because we haven't been doing it for very many generations. From what I know, we should be living in tribes, right? From that perspective, I would immediately look at communal housing solutions. Maybe we should often be living in very small apartments with communal living areas and communal eating and cooking areas. That's closer to what our bodies and minds expect, right?
- duderific 10y ago
  > I think it's valuable to think about this problem from an evolutionary perspective. Almost every problem we have can be viewed this way. Spot on. I was an Anthropology major in college, and this is the single most important takeaway from my education. Even a few decades ago, families often at least lived with or close to the elder generation (grandparents) which created a greater sense of community and history. At some point it was decided that elder persons should live by themselves, or they were not welcome in their adult children' homes (or there was no room for them there.) I think what you say about tribes is interesting -- I think people tend to create their own "tribes" either with friends, workmates, hobbies that are communal etc.
  - jostylr 10y ago
    Not just old people, but having young people segregated into cohorts of kids the same age, being directed in activities, away from what adults are naturally doing at that time. There is a whole age spectrum from 0 to 100 where the 20-60 year olds are providing the main physical sustenance, but the others are giving the main social sustenance. Our society has organized all that away. So kids wait to grow up so that they can finally have freedom and old people wait around to die. That's a bit extreme, of course, but there is a kernel of truth in it.
- allemagne 10y ago
  Isn't that sort of what a nuclear family living in a house or a college dorm is?
ssaddi 10y ago
This is a well written article. I agree that this problem is growing, due to less social interaction and more reliance on social media tools and apps. This is not good for society
carsongross 10y ago
A great paradox of our hyper-connected digital age is that we seem to be drifting apart. Increasingly, however, research confirms our deepest intuition: Human connection lies at the heart of human well-being. It’s up to all of us — doctors, patients, neighborhoods and communities — to maintain bonds where they’re fading, and create ones where they haven’t existed. Robert Putnam has written extensively on this issue and the underlying causes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam
jsemrau 10y ago
Only few things made me feel more isolated than using Facebook. Living newly in Tokyo, having a hard time making new friends, everyone seemed to live these wild an exciting lives. Left the service, the disconnect from my old friends made it easier, made new ones. A new life commenced.
okreallywtf 10y ago
One observation I've had: I feel/have felt more isolated when I don't have close connections with people around me but I am around a lot of people. I grew up in a really rural area and spent a lot of time outside alone and never felt isolated in nature. However once you get out in the city, get an internet connection etc, all the sudden you do feel isolated. Also, does anyone else like it when the power goes out? Its so surreal to be in the city without power (I'm used to it in the country however) and all the sudden everyone is on their porch or out in the street chatting. Then it comes on and everyone goes back into their little isolation chambers.
- goblin89 10y ago
  > I feel/have felt more isolated when I don't have close connections with people around me but I am around a lot of people. I really like Venkat’s write-up about masks[0]. Large cities, dense yet impersonal, strain our voice masks. Smaller communities, what you likely experienced in the rural area when you were not outside alone, can be psychologically healing but on the other hand strain our exit masks. Everyone has their own tipping point—you seem less susceptible to exit mask stress than me, for example. [0] http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/05/20/pretending-to-care-pretending-to-agree/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/05/20/pretending-to-care-pret...
Baeocystin 10y ago
It's articles like this that genuinely make me wonder if I'm a weirdo because I actually prefer to be alone when at all possible. And I like people! I have no trouble engaging in small talk while getting to know new folks. But man, they wear me out. Even ones I love. At the end of the day, I need aloneness if I'm going to recharge for tomorrow's challenges.
- ffwd 10y ago
  Sort of anecdotally, I think the big difference is whether it's voluntary or involuntary aloneness. Even the difference between 1 person and 0 persons to just call/talk to is huge
- remir 10y ago
  Same for me. I think small talk is draining because it lacks authenticity and the possibility of a real exchange that allows both party to understand themselves better.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  That's the very definition of introversion, and it's perfectly OK. But even introverts need some social interaction.
  - soroso 10y ago
    They do, but not the same type or intensity of extroverts. That's another facet of what I call "extrovert's dictatorship". Extroverts just assume that their way of doing social interaction is the healthy and correct one.
- johndoez 10y ago
  Similar introvert here. Open plan offices destroy me. It's a balancing act, not being too isolated so you get depressed, but having your own space really matters
gexla 10y ago
One of the biggest differences of the Philippines that I noticed on arrival was how many people are out and walking around in neighborhoods and around the city in general. One of the first comments my friend made when moving from the Philippines to the US was that she never saw people because everyone was either in their cars or their houses. Personally, I love being alone. I don't get lonely though. It's from my social life where all my bad and unhealthy habits come from. So, I would say it's a wash for me.
Ericson2314 10y ago
I'm glad so much of the discussion here is about suburbanization. As a staunch urbanist I want to beleive this is a huge cause, but I must admit the "alone in New York" counter-narrative is also compelling. I think I have to speculations on reconciling the two. First, I think we can agree that frequent interactions with another is a necessary (if not sufficient) condition for friendship. If so, it should be obvious that density is good but size is bad. Second, I believe our major metros—especislly since the great invertion—attract a certain sort of person less likely to foster community. Your steriotypical new gentrifier is career-focused with strong sense of individuality, moving for work, and, perhaps most importantly, fresh out of school where making friends presents very different challenges.
gabomagno03 10y ago
For anyone reading, really feeling lonely and having the means yo affort it. Come and visit a country like Colombia, we love having people over and making friends (really honest and helpful ones) is what we do best. I met an Austrian girl last week who told me she never felt as much in home as the next day she landed here. She now quit his tech job in Europe and moved here.
known 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
johndoez 10y ago
Anecdotally, and with the risk of the greatest generalisation, in my experience Protestant countries tend to be far more atomised than Catholic ones.
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- welanes 10y ago
  Great comment. Solitude and loneliness are different things. The former can build you up, the latter tear you asunder. An article from the New Yorker that was posted here a few months captured the sentiment: > Now and then, especially at night, solitude loses its soft power and loneliness takes over. I am grateful when solitude returns. I'm currently three months into a stretch of solitude as I focus fully on building an online business. While not prone to loneliness, there are films I won't watch and songs I refuse to play because they remind me too much of friends and loved ones. Which is to say, loneliness is like a lever that you have at least some control over. But it still stabs at you unexpectedly sometimes. Although perhaps saudade is the better term for this feeling. And I'm not too sure if it's an entirely undesirable emotion. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/double-solitude http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/double-solitud... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade
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throwaway27182 10y ago
I wonder if intelligence and propensity-to-learn gaps are major causes of social isolation among us here. I feel that they are two of the most important factors affecting my social life, from childhood up to now. The times I felt less socially isolated had always been when I studied or worked among some of the more intelligent and eager-to-learn people. And it gets more pronounced as I grow more mature and have spent more time learning and thinking. I found this out a few years ago and thought it might be pertinent to my situation: “Observation shows that there is a direct ratio between the intelligence of the leader and that of the led. To be a leader of his contemporaries a child must be more intelligent but not too much more intelligent than those to be led… But generally speaking, a leadership pattern will not form—or it will break up—when a discrepancy of more than about 30 points of IQ comes to exist between leader and led [1] I grew up in a developing country with inadequate educational system, to put it mildly. I have always done well academically, ranking top 10 nation-wide in two middle school exams. I got impatient and skipped two years of high school to attend a local college, which is considered a 'good' one. (I picked it for personal reasons, while having the 'national entrance exam' score high enough to pick the top university in the country.) I became increasingly aware of how much most people think differently in those years, as I could ace most analytical tests without putting much efforts and my friends struggled. We remained good friends but we shared few interests and not much in common intellectually. (I can perform most other activities, like sports or dance, fairly well given the little amount of time I spend on them, but I find most of them boring.) Then I got a scholarship to study in a top 10 CS graduate departments in the US. I found out that there are many more people who share my interests and we can interact on equal terms intellectually. I moved back to the country after graduation and started to suffer social isolation again. I dated someone who is a bit above average in intelligence but did not have the patience to explain everything so we parted away soon after. I had since have trouble finding people who I can be myself with in most respects intellectually and can explain my thought process concisely and get them to give interesting responses back in turn. For friends, it's not as big a problem since we usually don't have to see each other that often; but for dates, I think it might be a problem after a while. (Please let me know if and why you disagree. It would be helpful.) Earlier this year, I went back to live for a few months in a very intellectual city with a top university in the US and felt like I could connect with people around me again. Unfortunately, it will take quite a bit of efforts to move there permanently. If anyone has a differing perspective and interpretation that I have, please comment here. I'd love to connect better with the 'intellectually average' people as well. [1] http://www.functionalmovement.com/articles/Philosophy/2013-03-08_the_standard_deviation_of_communication http://www.functionalmovement.com/articles/Philosophy/2013-0...
0xcde4c3db 10y ago
How clear is it that the isolation actually precedes the disease rather than potentially being a symptom? A disease process doesn't pop into existence when the condition is diagnosed, and diagnosis often doesn't occur before the condition leads to some kind of crisis. Many conditions' symptoms include depressed mood and fatigue, which tend to reduce social activity.
jokoon 10y ago
When I was starting to use facebook in 2007, I thought it was the greatest thing ever to meet people and do things. I still think that the internet can make people who live near each other meet and socialize. I don't understand why no site like this is being created, and why facebook has become so alienating instead of becoming a site that encourage exclusivity between friends. People are really adopting the jetset attitude of social circles, always excluding the more people they can because they think it will improve their social life. I have thought so long and hard about my isolation, I also had the idea of: * building new types of apartments where people live together, instead of individual apartment that make you feel you are in a prison cell, unable to see your neighbor. People eat together, but they still have their bedrooms and private space. Basically you make life collective instead of individual. You reduce costs, so it's another incentive for people with low income. * Renting large apartments with many bedrooms and organizing life with people inside of it. * organizing regular meals for 10 people at a time, to improve food quality and make people eat together. I'm really tempted to create this kind of real life, "open" social website where you can do things with people based on proximity and maps. There are a million things people can do in the context of a sharing economy. It would be targeted towards isolated people so that they can find each others.
- karmelapple 10y ago
  meetup.com is a great website focused on helping people who live near each other meet and socialize. Highly recommend it.
  - jokoon 10y ago
    Only around specific and punctual activities, and it's mostly city centric, not location or neighbor centric.
    - karmelapple 10y ago
      Specific and punctual activities? Getting together to chat with like-minded individuals does require showing up at the right time, yes. But like, how else will you meet people? You have to agree to show up at a time. The topics I discuss at meetups I attend - software development, business development, and just geeky folks who like to discuss what they're hacking on - don't particularly have punctuality needs. You have to organize it by some location metric. It would be cool to have more options - let the Meetup folks know what you'd like!
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otakucode 10y ago
If we were to do something kooky and nutty like abandon centralized large corporate offices as our primary places of work, and instead the majority of us worked from home, that would result in many people spending several hour a day in their local neighborhood rather than sitting in their car. I expect local communities would be revitalized simply by default because people would finally be PRESENT instead of commuting and spending the majority of their waking hours far away from their local community. Just another way that the death of our antiquated 'way of work' that was optimal for manufacturing and assembly lines but downright ludicrous now will benefit everyone. Well, except for middle managers. They'll mostly be automated out of a job. Have to get their heart attacks the old fashioned way I guess.
- soroso 10y ago
  Not entirely true. Often people work in a different time zone than their neighborhood, thus rendering the proposed effect useless. That's my case.
- Ensorceled 10y ago
  This is interesting in that many people get their only social interaction from their co-workers. Work from home would just isolate them even more.
  - otakucode 10y ago
    That would only be true if human beings were not fundamentally social creatures by nature. Working from home, it should be remembered, was the default state of mankind from the beginning of time up until the rise of factories a little over a century ago. It is tempting, but I think a mistake, to assume that people currently isolate themselves out of desire rather than out of consequence of long commutes, the psychological fatigue of the modern workplace, etc. Just look at different age groups. Children are isolated forcibly by their parents, so they're not informative. Adolescents, though, take great pains to avoid isolation even though their parents and society generally goes to great lengths to try to impose it upon them. Retired people do not generally isolate themselves (there are, of course, exceptions). It's only the working stiffs that tend to isolate themselves. And even that is mostly a modern phenomenon. It might be down to people being satisfied with social media as their means of socializing, but I doubt it.
peter303 10y ago
I wonder how much this is due to living in a big city like New York where there is pretty good availability of basic living services whether government or private. Services like housing, health, food. Then you not really need to build social netwrks to live. Great for loner types then.
peter303 10y ago
Last year the New York Times ran an article on New Yorks Potters cemetery called Hart Island. Die without someone to make arrangements and the city efficiently buries you in this indigent cemetery. Sometimes people are not discovered dead for weeks until the rotting smell in their multiple housing becomes too strong for neighbors. The Times tracked down acquaintances and relatives of these people. They never knew these people had died. The city doent try too hard to find such relatives.
faragon 10y ago
It is easier being egotistical when someone is able to live alone with enough comfort. I guess that it could be somehow "solved" with tax discounts by having kids, by sharing home with elder people, or even by sharing home in general, in general.
quickpost 10y ago
That Linkages site appears to be limited to only California and Oregon. If you're outside that area, I found another site that looks similar with a broader network of opportunities to help Senior Citizens: http://www.elderhelpers.org/ http://www.elderhelpers.org/
navait 10y ago
From my perspective, I think most people want to be socially isolated, or at the very least, never change their social bubble. After completing school, I didn't want to be lonely when living in the working world. So I bought a few books on socializing, picked up swing dance, went to meetups, took adult education classes and volunteered in the US election. After 16 months of continuous practice, I have made 0 friends. Conversations with strangers, yes. I got contact information, was religious about following up, but people who agreed to do something with me in the future suddenly didn't respond to my messages. Attempted to have a few gatherings at my apartment and despite the people I invited saying they would come, nobody showed up. Why even bother if people won't meet you a tenth of the way?
- tdfx 10y ago
  Just like anything else, people want social interactions that are stimulating and rewarding. Being around other people for the sake of being around other warm bodies is typically not very interesting for most people. Who has no shortage of friends? People with obvious value propositions. Rich or influential people. Well connected people. Good looking people. People who already have a lot of friends. It's strange to think about it in economic terms, but I've found it's a very useful abstraction.
  - navait 10y ago
    I am rich, and don't have many friends.
    - tdfx 10y ago
      Well, money itself really doesn't put you ahead. You can be a rich guy who owns a bunch of real estate and nobody would notice. Buy the Miss USA pageant and all of a sudden lots of beautiful girls really want to get to know you. If you're not that rich, settle for being the money guy of a popular nightclub.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Maybe for some obvious exception cases. But for the bulk of the bell curve, who are not particularly influential or handsome, it's more to do with coincidence of social position. Lucking into a friendly crowd at work for instance.
topherb 10y ago
Ultimately, you can't treat social as a science, think of it as faith, as an never ending improv performance. There are four ways to create a social life: Fake it till its fact - be someone else until it feels like you Be artistic - find an expressive outlet you enjoy and find other people who express the same way Be vulnerable and live in moments - take every loss and win with a grain of salt, acknowledge something happened then move on. No moment has more emphasis than others, they are just lily pads for you to jump on and off. Think outward, not in - react to what people say or do without introspection, trust what you already intrinsically know/feel
hasbot 10y ago
Odd that we see so many articles like this on HN. Do the studies factor in introverts vs. extroverts? Do the studies factor in intelligence? Do the studies factor in people that have been alone for nearly all their life? And what about pets? Are they useful in alleviating loneliness?
neves 10y ago
Maybe American culture of families living far away is a bad one. In other countries, like Italy and Brazil, there are social unities that stay together all their life. Families that just meet at Thanksgiving is weird.
potatoman2 10y ago
Getting married helps.
nathan_f77 10y ago
I'm an introvert. I'm also a remote worker, and I no longer attend church. I was very involved in the church when I was growing up, so I'm well aware that my life is now lacking something, in terms of connection and a sense of community. I've recently been searching for some alternatives. There's Unitarian Universalists [1], who welcomes people from any faith, including atheists and agnostics. You can discuss any religion openly, and they have regular services on Sunday where you can socialize, enjoy some music, and listen to a speaker. There's also the Rotary Club [2], where people regularly meet for meals, and work to help their community. Then there's the Freemasons, but I don't think that's for me. I might like to organize a secular humanist "church" or club with regular meetings and meals. I think it would be nice to have discussions about philosophy and science, maybe watch some documentaries and talks together, and have a book club. Another random thought on the topic of isolation: St. John's runs a "caring caller" [3] service in New Zealand, where people can volunteer to call elderly people on the phone, and just have conversations with them. If I'm ever back in New Zealand, I think I would like to get involved with that. Also in New Zealand: The High Street Cohousing project [4] in Dunedin. I think it's a fantastic idea. I love the idea of a shared community space, and the sustainability. I'm seriously thinking about getting involved, or maybe I can buy one of the houses in the future. I enjoy living in Chiang Mai, and it's not too hard to meet people here. There are plenty of meetups and groups to join. I meet a lot of digital nomads who come and go, but my wife and I have a small group of friends that are living here long term. There's also a Rotary Club here that we have been thinking about joining. My wife and I have also been rewatching Gilmore Girls. We agree that it would be really nice to live somewhere like their fictional town of Stars Hollow, in Connecticut. The main reason is to be part of a close-knit community, but also because that area has distinct seasons (especially fall and winter), beautiful architecture, history, and close proximity to New York. I ended up reading quite a lot of articles and blog posts from people who want the same thing, and have visited similar towns in Connecticut. One blog post was a bit depressing [5]. They are saying that this town could never exist, because of big-box stores like Walmart who are killing many small businesses. YC has a plan to build a new city, so I hope they are thinking about these things. I think the issues of community and isolation might be more important than anything else. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism [2] https://www.rotary.org/en https://www.rotary.org/en [3] http://www.stjohn.org.nz/What-we-do/Community-programmes/Caring-Caller/ http://www.stjohn.org.nz/What-we-do/Community-programmes/Car... [4] http://highstreetcohousing.nz/ http://highstreetcohousing.nz/ [5] https://thecompletistblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/stars-hollow/ https://thecompletistblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/stars-hol...
Nomentatus 10y ago
Don't underestimate the social value of consistency - being in the same place at the same time very reliably. Then those who decide you're interesting can come back and visit again. You may have to put in a lot of hours before anything happens, but at least it can happen. Even if it's just buying a coffee and drinking it at the same place and time every day.
acd 10y ago
There is the blue zones were people are living the longest in the world. Besides eating healthy a lot of those places has a strong local community where you can connect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone People are staring down in the cell phone screens instead of talking to strangers in social environments. Plus if one is looking at the phone one is not that approachable. Apps can connect people but also disconnect humans. Time for a debate on how to use new tech in a positive manner. Even people that know each other sometime disconnect through tech for example friends going to a cafe together instead of talking using their cell phones. We are using GPS instead of asking others for directions. Robots are replacing cashiers and simple jobs at service desks.

395 points by e15ctr0n 10y ago

you're all idiots.

I like the article, but I gotta ask: why the focus on "new research"? Is "old research" not good enough? I suppose it might not be, but some of it should really be at least brought up. Here's a book from 1974 [1] by Robert Weiss, whose first (sample) chapter [2] reads very similar to the NYTimes piece, and covers many of the same issues, even before the internet was around. In particular, it draws the line (much more clearly than the NYTimes piece) between what it calls loneliness of emotional isolation and loneliness of social isolation, and, to me, its examples like the condition of married couples who moved far away are much more salient (and convincing) than reliance on surveys and dry statements like "loneliness can accelerate cognitive decline" and "increases risk of heart disease by 29%". Am I missing something? P.S. One cool thing I learned about from reading about Cacioppo's research is that when designing a survey about loneliness you can't ask questions like "do you feel lonely?" because it's much too ambiguous and people end up giving incoherent useless answers. I never thought something so basic could be so confusing to people. [1] https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/loneliness https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/loneliness [2] https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/9780262730419_sch_0001.pdf https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/...

muninn_ 10y ago
Right. It's not an issue of technology, for the most part, but it's the way American cities are designed. Instead of mixed-use walkable neighborhoods where people with a variety of incomes and backgrounds live, and stay put, we have suburban fortresses where people live in a box, never talk to their neighbors, drive a box to work, work in a box, then do it all over again. The national highway system was great for a nation on the brink of all-out war. We needed to move troops, tanks, people, supplies quickly and efficiently. This system ended up being used to separate black people from working class whites. Naturally we have drug and violence problems in those communities that were segregated from the more educated and affluent white population. Terrible. I wish I could be governor or something and make sure that we stop this. It makes me sad.
- winter_blue 10y ago
  You could get involved in local politics, and maybe eventually even run for governor. Is there anything stopping you?
  - bluejekyll 10y ago
    Exactly. If you want this stuff to change, stop waiting for others to do it, you can get involved and start changing things.
  - muninn_ 10y ago
    Yes. I have a high-paying job, a mortgage, and although I'm personable I don't see any starting point or path toward doing anything about it.
    - Frondo 10y ago
      Volunteer with your preferred local political party. The path to getting into politics can start as easily as showing up until people know you, and having good ideas that enough people agree with. Your job as a politician would be to carry those ideas to the structures of power (town council, school board, whatever). It's pretty time-consuming, but it's a big responsibility, making decisions that affect lots of people's lives. So, trade-offs.
      - zeroer 10y ago
        Another reason not to do so is that it's a high-risk, low-reward endeavor.
- arkitaip 10y ago
  We city apartment people aren't better at socializing with our neighbors, probably even worse. The stereotype that cities can be harsh and unfriendly is very much rooted in reality.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
cableshaft 10y ago
Older research is generally given less credence than newer research because of certain assumptions which may or may not be accurate: * That the researchers looked into previous research, examined those results, and are either replicating them (thus adding extra evidence to those hypothesis), or have found some sort of flaw in how the research was gathered. * That the researches have, in their research, looked into multiple previous studies, including the old one you referenced, and synthesized them all for their new research. * It's often been shown that older research studies are flawed in some way, especially in certain fields, such as nutrition, so older studies should be held suspect (really the newer studies should be held with just as much skepticism, but they never are) Again, the assumptions that this is done is not necessarily what happened in reality, but without media or laypeople doing their own research into things (and neither have time for that), it's usually a useful greedy heuristic to assume newer research is better and more accurate than older research.
bogomipz 10y ago
>'I gotta ask: why the focus on "new research"?' I think this passage is key, I had not heard this postulated before: "New research suggests that loneliness is not necessarily the result of poor social skills or lack of social support, but can be caused in part by unusual sensitivity to social cues. Lonely people are more likely to perceive ambiguous social cues negatively, and enter a self-preservation mind-set — worsening the problem."
- TheRealDunkirk 10y ago
  Totally agree. I think the internet and social media have just exacerbated the existing problem that society is fracturing into countless splinter groups, with no tolerance for any of the others' views, and it's really difficult to find and keep up with those handful of people you can actually tolerate enough to keep a close social bond with. I don't think that it takes a degree in sociology, or a controlled study, to see this happening. As for WHY, my own, personal theory is that "we" (the US) came together to support the war effort in the forties in a way that the world had never experienced before or since, and it's all been a snowballing disassociation since, made worse as a reaction TO the perceived stifling effect of the dominant societal norm of that day.
  - bendoernberg 10y ago
    FWIW communities coming together in times of emergency is a pretty universal experience, not unique to the US in the 1940's (the UK's home front experience during WW2 [1] is cited as an example most often I think). A book I've been meaning to read for a while is "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit. From the Washington Post review [2]: "Her book is worth reading for its storytelling alone. But what makes it even more fascinating is Solnit's demonstration that disasters give rise to small, temporary utopias in which the best of human nature emerges and a remarkable spirit of generosity and cooperation takes over. 'Disaster,' she writes, 'along with moments of social upheaval, is when the shackles of conventional belief and role fall away and the possibilities open up.' People suffering unimaginable misfortune often revert not to savagery but to an almost beatific selflessness, comforting themselves in extremis by aiding others. Solnit cites many examples of those who remember a disaster as, paradoxically, one of the great moments of their lives. The reaction is similar to that of some who recall the Great Depression as a time of spiritual and social richness." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_front_during_World_War_II#Britain_and_Commonwealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_front_during_World_War_II... [2] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101111.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08...
mtw 10y ago
It's because loneliness is much more prevalent now than in 1974. It's no longer exotic but a condition sometimes voluntarily chosen and supported by modern technologies in 2016. Also we used to think that heart disease risk is mostly tied to diet and exercise. But it's still the #1 killer in the United States. So every protective or risk factor needs to be considered. As such, new research linking heart disease, CVD, CHD to loneliness, friendship or marriage is interesting. And It doesn't stop there. Loneliness is also tied to breast cancer, lymphoma and obesity : http://outcomereference.com/causes/59 http://outcomereference.com/causes/59
- gragas 10y ago
  That's not to say that loneliness causes those things. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that lonely people are more likely to be depressed and sedentary. Many diseases follow from being depressed and sedentary.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  My folks were Silent Generation,and I think we're a lot less lonely than they were. And face it, I like being alone. I haven't felt lonely since college, and I think that was mostly performance anxiety.
EGreg 10y ago
Or Putnam's "Bowling Alone"
- bogomipz 10y ago
  That was an excellent book. It was also a prescient book as it predates social media and the smart phone.
Chathamization 10y ago
I think that been undergoing a number of changes - including (but not limited to) the increase in urbanization (moving away from close small communities), increase in movement (relatives spread across the country/globe), increase in secularism (decrease in religious communities), and more access to personal entertainment (see the end of the Chautauqua movement), that have definitely caused us to be more isolated and have less of a sense of community. We are still trying to adapt to - or even be aware of - the changes we have been undergoing and the implications of it. It seems like a sense of community is extremely important for a society, particularly with the connection there seems to be between community and happiness (my understanding is that much of the happiness that religious people get is from the community, for example). Still, I haven't seen a great idea as to how one can be fostered (though there are some decent ideas about what you as an individual can do to get a better sense).
PavlovsCat 10y ago
> Is "old research" not good enough? Indeed.. while waiting for the new research to come out, read Marcus Aurelius, Erich Fromm and Hannah Arendt. Maybe throw in some Roman and Greek classics. That should "help a bit". The problem isn't that we don't know how to live well and healthy and sleep soundly, it's that we want to be healthy and sleep soundly without living that way. We don't want to be simply just and honest and go from there. Well, joke's on us, the truth remains where it is, waiting for dithering people to stop being scared of it.
vonnik 10y ago
> why the focus on "new research"? Is "old research" not good enough? Because the NYT is a newspaper and they need a reason to publish a news article. This is known as a "hook." The hook in cases like this will be something new being published. It's hard to hook readers by announcing: What we've known since the 1970s still holds true. Just doesn't work.
- ianai 10y ago
  Yep, same reason Taylor Swift has so many breakup songs. They sell. The NYT has so many words to push per release and they have to come from a variety of topics.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

aschearer 10y ago

If you find this interesting you may enjoy The Village Effect[1] by Susan Pinker. It's a more in-depth look at this phenomenon. If social isolation is as deadly as smoking or not exercising, should we approach the problem with a similar level of seriousness? Maybe we need "social exercise" three times a week, and if we aren't getting it naturally should contrive a way to get it much like going to the gym. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18167005-the-village-effect https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18167005-the-village-eff...

brilliantcode 10y ago

Social isolation is a huge problem. There's stigma around declaring it. I'm doing my part to address this problem right now: Any HN'ers in downtown Vancouver reading this post, let's grab coffee near Robson Square. My email is in my profile and synced to my phone so I will reply promptly. I've been just reading principles.com (from the other HN thread) and inspired to take action.

finid 10y ago
To some extent, Meetups help. It's not just an opportunity to hear about the latest in a filed that you have an interest in, but also an avenue to meet-and-greet.
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  I always found Meetups impersonal and difficult to socialize in large crowds due to my debilating social anxiety. Btw, nobody showed up yesterday but I haven't given up. I'm here from 9am ~ 5pm near Robson Square. Coffee (or tea) is on me. If you are not in Vancouver then shoot me an email, you can talk about anything.
  - matt101589 10y ago
    I found Meetup to be the same way for me. So I'm starting something that allows you to limit how many people can join and have the option to create plans without needing a Meetup Group. Check it out TheCoopApp.com and let me know what you think.
    - brilliantcode 10y ago
      interesting idea. is this native or pwa?
      - matt101589 10y ago
        pwa

noobermin 10y ago

Often times, admitting loneliness makes one look "needy" or "desperate" and even less desirable for a friendly relationship. It's almost a catch-22.

mmanfrin 10y ago

We are pack animals, it is why dogs evolved in to our family. Isolation is a severance from our natural social state and is hurtful. I think one of the great benefits of the internet is that it is possible to meet and befriend people outside of the normal social routes. It is not a cure for isolation, but friends you game with or chat with or share stupid stories with is a help. The problem is that reddit and digg killed the conventional forum, so no one really cares who you are any more (unlike when people would start to 'know' regular posters on forums). Now it's a crapshoot of random people and a smattering of comment replies if people vote on your comment. No personality, no real interaction.

paulpauper 10y ago
traditional forums still exist the problem with reddit is that there is too much news, outrage, and hype there.
- mmanfrin 10y ago
  They still exist, but they have been dying. There are a few niche forums that still hold on to users, but the proliferation of subreddits leaks people away. I visit no forums today, whereas when I grew up it was a majority of my online-life.
  - no_wizard 10y ago
    I agree with this wholly. I used to play chess on a service called FICS and it had a decent social scene in some ways for someone who was growing up geek in a town that wasn't really giving avenues for it (I grew up in the rural Midwest...it's no rural south but it's not great either) I went back recently and it's usershio is wwaaaay down
    - sirclueless 10y ago
      Well, I think like every other loosely federated communication system from the 90s (except email), the scene has moved on to a couple proprietary platforms providing a better user experience. lichess.org and chess.com have pretty good scenes now, and you can still make friends there.

TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago

I have been "lonely" most of my life. I have lived in a terrible town growing up where everyone lived on the other side of town. I went to college where nothing was happening and nothing is really interesting and I didn't connect with anyone really. Now, I am reaching 30, and have spent the most of my 20s trying to find a way to move to a place that will make me happy. I'm hoping this will eventually happen, but I have lost a lot of hope. I don't feel connected to humans whatsoever. However, the greatest joy for me is sitting in front of my computer interacting with you folk. I don't get social interaction...

edpichler 10y ago
Man, could I give an advice to you? Don't expect too much from other people, and try you to create "events" and invite some people, with similar interests, to join with you. Don't worry about the "no"s you will receive, pay attention to the "yes". The change start on you. This works for me.
- TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
  I mean I still try and I give more than I receive for sure, but nothing seems to be working. For the first half of my 20s I didn't leave the house under the assumption that, "if I work hard, I can live where I want to and find a job in a cool place. No reason to make friends now." I have since replaced that assumption, but it's hard to find meaningful relationships in a place you despise.
  - soneca 10y ago
    Do you despise all people living in the place you live now? Take this lightly, but I bet you can find at least one more person that "despises" your place and you can discuss that with them. :)
    - TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
      I will say that my limited connections comes from mutual hate and not mutual interests. Not sure if that is good or bad.

theideasmith 10y ago

It is very important this research was shared. However, the very difficult and likely impossible part is to actually change the emotional and interpersonal ethos of society. Given the very intangible nature of the problem, no one in power will care enough to initiate a national program to motivate such social change. Therefore, it must come from us, the people. We ought to stand to the call and do something of value to nudge society towards a more interactive state.

paulpauper 10y ago

imho the problem is more to do with boredom and unfulfillment than isolation

FrancoDiaz 10y ago

To know your dying, and to have no one in your life is a very scary place to be in.

mistermann 10y ago
Not as bad, but it's scary even if you aren't dying.
shorttime 10y ago
Why's that? Nobody will be sad when you do so there's that silver lining.

bvinc 10y ago

I think it's valuable to think about this problem from an evolutionary perspective. Almost every problem we have can be viewed this way. We should be asking ourselves how we were living 100,000 years ago. This is what our bodies and our brains are expecting. The whole concept of the nuclear family and a house and a fence is a completely foreign concept to our bodies because we haven't been doing it for very many generations. From what I know, we should be living in tribes, right? From that perspective, I would immediately look at communal housing solutions. Maybe we should often be living in very small apartments with communal living areas and communal eating and cooking areas. That's closer to what our bodies and minds expect, right?

duderific 10y ago
> I think it's valuable to think about this problem from an evolutionary perspective. Almost every problem we have can be viewed this way. Spot on. I was an Anthropology major in college, and this is the single most important takeaway from my education. Even a few decades ago, families often at least lived with or close to the elder generation (grandparents) which created a greater sense of community and history. At some point it was decided that elder persons should live by themselves, or they were not welcome in their adult children' homes (or there was no room for them there.) I think what you say about tribes is interesting -- I think people tend to create their own "tribes" either with friends, workmates, hobbies that are communal etc.
- jostylr 10y ago
  Not just old people, but having young people segregated into cohorts of kids the same age, being directed in activities, away from what adults are naturally doing at that time. There is a whole age spectrum from 0 to 100 where the 20-60 year olds are providing the main physical sustenance, but the others are giving the main social sustenance. Our society has organized all that away. So kids wait to grow up so that they can finally have freedom and old people wait around to die. That's a bit extreme, of course, but there is a kernel of truth in it.
allemagne 10y ago
Isn't that sort of what a nuclear family living in a house or a college dorm is?

ssaddi 10y ago

This is a well written article. I agree that this problem is growing, due to less social interaction and more reliance on social media tools and apps. This is not good for society

carsongross 10y ago

A great paradox of our hyper-connected digital age is that we seem to be drifting apart. Increasingly, however, research confirms our deepest intuition: Human connection lies at the heart of human well-being. It’s up to all of us — doctors, patients, neighborhoods and communities — to maintain bonds where they’re fading, and create ones where they haven’t existed. Robert Putnam has written extensively on this issue and the underlying causes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam

jsemrau 10y ago

Only few things made me feel more isolated than using Facebook. Living newly in Tokyo, having a hard time making new friends, everyone seemed to live these wild an exciting lives. Left the service, the disconnect from my old friends made it easier, made new ones. A new life commenced.

okreallywtf 10y ago

One observation I've had: I feel/have felt more isolated when I don't have close connections with people around me but I am around a lot of people. I grew up in a really rural area and spent a lot of time outside alone and never felt isolated in nature. However once you get out in the city, get an internet connection etc, all the sudden you do feel isolated. Also, does anyone else like it when the power goes out? Its so surreal to be in the city without power (I'm used to it in the country however) and all the sudden everyone is on their porch or out in the street chatting. Then it comes on and everyone goes back into their little isolation chambers.

goblin89 10y ago
> I feel/have felt more isolated when I don't have close connections with people around me but I am around a lot of people. I really like Venkat’s write-up about masks[0]. Large cities, dense yet impersonal, strain our voice masks. Smaller communities, what you likely experienced in the rural area when you were not outside alone, can be psychologically healing but on the other hand strain our exit masks. Everyone has their own tipping point—you seem less susceptible to exit mask stress than me, for example. [0] http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/05/20/pretending-to-care-pretending-to-agree/ http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/05/20/pretending-to-care-pret...

Baeocystin 10y ago

It's articles like this that genuinely make me wonder if I'm a weirdo because I actually prefer to be alone when at all possible. And I like people! I have no trouble engaging in small talk while getting to know new folks. But man, they wear me out. Even ones I love. At the end of the day, I need aloneness if I'm going to recharge for tomorrow's challenges.

ffwd 10y ago
Sort of anecdotally, I think the big difference is whether it's voluntary or involuntary aloneness. Even the difference between 1 person and 0 persons to just call/talk to is huge
remir 10y ago
Same for me. I think small talk is draining because it lacks authenticity and the possibility of a real exchange that allows both party to understand themselves better.
enraged_camel 10y ago
That's the very definition of introversion, and it's perfectly OK. But even introverts need some social interaction.
- soroso 10y ago
  They do, but not the same type or intensity of extroverts. That's another facet of what I call "extrovert's dictatorship". Extroverts just assume that their way of doing social interaction is the healthy and correct one.
johndoez 10y ago
Similar introvert here. Open plan offices destroy me. It's a balancing act, not being too isolated so you get depressed, but having your own space really matters

gexla 10y ago

One of the biggest differences of the Philippines that I noticed on arrival was how many people are out and walking around in neighborhoods and around the city in general. One of the first comments my friend made when moving from the Philippines to the US was that she never saw people because everyone was either in their cars or their houses. Personally, I love being alone. I don't get lonely though. It's from my social life where all my bad and unhealthy habits come from. So, I would say it's a wash for me.

Ericson2314 10y ago

I'm glad so much of the discussion here is about suburbanization. As a staunch urbanist I want to beleive this is a huge cause, but I must admit the "alone in New York" counter-narrative is also compelling. I think I have to speculations on reconciling the two. First, I think we can agree that frequent interactions with another is a necessary (if not sufficient) condition for friendship. If so, it should be obvious that density is good but size is bad. Second, I believe our major metros—especislly since the great invertion—attract a certain sort of person less likely to foster community. Your steriotypical new gentrifier is career-focused with strong sense of individuality, moving for work, and, perhaps most importantly, fresh out of school where making friends presents very different challenges.

gabomagno03 10y ago

For anyone reading, really feeling lonely and having the means yo affort it. Come and visit a country like Colombia, we love having people over and making friends (really honest and helpful ones) is what we do best. I met an Austrian girl last week who told me she never felt as much in home as the next day she landed here. She now quit his tech job in Europe and moved here.

known 10y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

johndoez 10y ago

Anecdotally, and with the risk of the greatest generalisation, in my experience Protestant countries tend to be far more atomised than Catholic ones.

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welanes 10y ago
Great comment. Solitude and loneliness are different things. The former can build you up, the latter tear you asunder. An article from the New Yorker that was posted here a few months captured the sentiment: > Now and then, especially at night, solitude loses its soft power and loneliness takes over. I am grateful when solitude returns. I'm currently three months into a stretch of solitude as I focus fully on building an online business. While not prone to loneliness, there are films I won't watch and songs I refuse to play because they remind me too much of friends and loved ones. Which is to say, loneliness is like a lever that you have at least some control over. But it still stabs at you unexpectedly sometimes. Although perhaps saudade is the better term for this feeling. And I'm not too sure if it's an entirely undesirable emotion. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/double-solitude http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/double-solitud... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade

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throwaway27182 10y ago

I wonder if intelligence and propensity-to-learn gaps are major causes of social isolation among us here. I feel that they are two of the most important factors affecting my social life, from childhood up to now. The times I felt less socially isolated had always been when I studied or worked among some of the more intelligent and eager-to-learn people. And it gets more pronounced as I grow more mature and have spent more time learning and thinking. I found this out a few years ago and thought it might be pertinent to my situation: “Observation shows that there is a direct ratio between the intelligence of the leader and that of the led. To be a leader of his contemporaries a child must be more intelligent but not too much more intelligent than those to be led… But generally speaking, a leadership pattern will not form—or it will break up—when a discrepancy of more than about 30 points of IQ comes to exist between leader and led [1] I grew up in a developing country with inadequate educational system, to put it mildly. I have always done well academically, ranking top 10 nation-wide in two middle school exams. I got impatient and skipped two years of high school to attend a local college, which is considered a 'good' one. (I picked it for personal reasons, while having the 'national entrance exam' score high enough to pick the top university in the country.) I became increasingly aware of how much most people think differently in those years, as I could ace most analytical tests without putting much efforts and my friends struggled. We remained good friends but we shared few interests and not much in common intellectually. (I can perform most other activities, like sports or dance, fairly well given the little amount of time I spend on them, but I find most of them boring.) Then I got a scholarship to study in a top 10 CS graduate departments in the US. I found out that there are many more people who share my interests and we can interact on equal terms intellectually. I moved back to the country after graduation and started to suffer social isolation again. I dated someone who is a bit above average in intelligence but did not have the patience to explain everything so we parted away soon after. I had since have trouble finding people who I can be myself with in most respects intellectually and can explain my thought process concisely and get them to give interesting responses back in turn. For friends, it's not as big a problem since we usually don't have to see each other that often; but for dates, I think it might be a problem after a while. (Please let me know if and why you disagree. It would be helpful.) Earlier this year, I went back to live for a few months in a very intellectual city with a top university in the US and felt like I could connect with people around me again. Unfortunately, it will take quite a bit of efforts to move there permanently. If anyone has a differing perspective and interpretation that I have, please comment here. I'd love to connect better with the 'intellectually average' people as well. [1] http://www.functionalmovement.com/articles/Philosophy/2013-03-08_the_standard_deviation_of_communication http://www.functionalmovement.com/articles/Philosophy/2013-0...

0xcde4c3db 10y ago

How clear is it that the isolation actually precedes the disease rather than potentially being a symptom? A disease process doesn't pop into existence when the condition is diagnosed, and diagnosis often doesn't occur before the condition leads to some kind of crisis. Many conditions' symptoms include depressed mood and fatigue, which tend to reduce social activity.

jokoon 10y ago

When I was starting to use facebook in 2007, I thought it was the greatest thing ever to meet people and do things. I still think that the internet can make people who live near each other meet and socialize. I don't understand why no site like this is being created, and why facebook has become so alienating instead of becoming a site that encourage exclusivity between friends. People are really adopting the jetset attitude of social circles, always excluding the more people they can because they think it will improve their social life. I have thought so long and hard about my isolation, I also had the idea of: * building new types of apartments where people live together, instead of individual apartment that make you feel you are in a prison cell, unable to see your neighbor. People eat together, but they still have their bedrooms and private space. Basically you make life collective instead of individual. You reduce costs, so it's another incentive for people with low income. * Renting large apartments with many bedrooms and organizing life with people inside of it. * organizing regular meals for 10 people at a time, to improve food quality and make people eat together. I'm really tempted to create this kind of real life, "open" social website where you can do things with people based on proximity and maps. There are a million things people can do in the context of a sharing economy. It would be targeted towards isolated people so that they can find each others.

karmelapple 10y ago
meetup.com is a great website focused on helping people who live near each other meet and socialize. Highly recommend it.
- jokoon 10y ago
  Only around specific and punctual activities, and it's mostly city centric, not location or neighbor centric.
  - karmelapple 10y ago
    Specific and punctual activities? Getting together to chat with like-minded individuals does require showing up at the right time, yes. But like, how else will you meet people? You have to agree to show up at a time. The topics I discuss at meetups I attend - software development, business development, and just geeky folks who like to discuss what they're hacking on - don't particularly have punctuality needs. You have to organize it by some location metric. It would be cool to have more options - let the Meetup folks know what you'd like!

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otakucode 10y ago

If we were to do something kooky and nutty like abandon centralized large corporate offices as our primary places of work, and instead the majority of us worked from home, that would result in many people spending several hour a day in their local neighborhood rather than sitting in their car. I expect local communities would be revitalized simply by default because people would finally be PRESENT instead of commuting and spending the majority of their waking hours far away from their local community. Just another way that the death of our antiquated 'way of work' that was optimal for manufacturing and assembly lines but downright ludicrous now will benefit everyone. Well, except for middle managers. They'll mostly be automated out of a job. Have to get their heart attacks the old fashioned way I guess.

soroso 10y ago
Not entirely true. Often people work in a different time zone than their neighborhood, thus rendering the proposed effect useless. That's my case.
Ensorceled 10y ago
This is interesting in that many people get their only social interaction from their co-workers. Work from home would just isolate them even more.
- otakucode 10y ago
  That would only be true if human beings were not fundamentally social creatures by nature. Working from home, it should be remembered, was the default state of mankind from the beginning of time up until the rise of factories a little over a century ago. It is tempting, but I think a mistake, to assume that people currently isolate themselves out of desire rather than out of consequence of long commutes, the psychological fatigue of the modern workplace, etc. Just look at different age groups. Children are isolated forcibly by their parents, so they're not informative. Adolescents, though, take great pains to avoid isolation even though their parents and society generally goes to great lengths to try to impose it upon them. Retired people do not generally isolate themselves (there are, of course, exceptions). It's only the working stiffs that tend to isolate themselves. And even that is mostly a modern phenomenon. It might be down to people being satisfied with social media as their means of socializing, but I doubt it.

peter303 10y ago

I wonder how much this is due to living in a big city like New York where there is pretty good availability of basic living services whether government or private. Services like housing, health, food. Then you not really need to build social netwrks to live. Great for loner types then.

peter303 10y ago

Last year the New York Times ran an article on New Yorks Potters cemetery called Hart Island. Die without someone to make arrangements and the city efficiently buries you in this indigent cemetery. Sometimes people are not discovered dead for weeks until the rotting smell in their multiple housing becomes too strong for neighbors. The Times tracked down acquaintances and relatives of these people. They never knew these people had died. The city doent try too hard to find such relatives.

faragon 10y ago

It is easier being egotistical when someone is able to live alone with enough comfort. I guess that it could be somehow "solved" with tax discounts by having kids, by sharing home with elder people, or even by sharing home in general, in general.

quickpost 10y ago

That Linkages site appears to be limited to only California and Oregon. If you're outside that area, I found another site that looks similar with a broader network of opportunities to help Senior Citizens: http://www.elderhelpers.org/ http://www.elderhelpers.org/

navait 10y ago

From my perspective, I think most people want to be socially isolated, or at the very least, never change their social bubble. After completing school, I didn't want to be lonely when living in the working world. So I bought a few books on socializing, picked up swing dance, went to meetups, took adult education classes and volunteered in the US election. After 16 months of continuous practice, I have made 0 friends. Conversations with strangers, yes. I got contact information, was religious about following up, but people who agreed to do something with me in the future suddenly didn't respond to my messages. Attempted to have a few gatherings at my apartment and despite the people I invited saying they would come, nobody showed up. Why even bother if people won't meet you a tenth of the way?

tdfx 10y ago
Just like anything else, people want social interactions that are stimulating and rewarding. Being around other people for the sake of being around other warm bodies is typically not very interesting for most people. Who has no shortage of friends? People with obvious value propositions. Rich or influential people. Well connected people. Good looking people. People who already have a lot of friends. It's strange to think about it in economic terms, but I've found it's a very useful abstraction.
- navait 10y ago
  I am rich, and don't have many friends.
  - tdfx 10y ago
    Well, money itself really doesn't put you ahead. You can be a rich guy who owns a bunch of real estate and nobody would notice. Buy the Miss USA pageant and all of a sudden lots of beautiful girls really want to get to know you. If you're not that rich, settle for being the money guy of a popular nightclub.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Maybe for some obvious exception cases. But for the bulk of the bell curve, who are not particularly influential or handsome, it's more to do with coincidence of social position. Lucking into a friendly crowd at work for instance.

topherb 10y ago

Ultimately, you can't treat social as a science, think of it as faith, as an never ending improv performance. There are four ways to create a social life: Fake it till its fact - be someone else until it feels like you Be artistic - find an expressive outlet you enjoy and find other people who express the same way Be vulnerable and live in moments - take every loss and win with a grain of salt, acknowledge something happened then move on. No moment has more emphasis than others, they are just lily pads for you to jump on and off. Think outward, not in - react to what people say or do without introspection, trust what you already intrinsically know/feel

hasbot 10y ago

Odd that we see so many articles like this on HN. Do the studies factor in introverts vs. extroverts? Do the studies factor in intelligence? Do the studies factor in people that have been alone for nearly all their life? And what about pets? Are they useful in alleviating loneliness?

neves 10y ago

Maybe American culture of families living far away is a bad one. In other countries, like Italy and Brazil, there are social unities that stay together all their life. Families that just meet at Thanksgiving is weird.

potatoman2 10y ago

Getting married helps.

nathan_f77 10y ago

I'm an introvert. I'm also a remote worker, and I no longer attend church. I was very involved in the church when I was growing up, so I'm well aware that my life is now lacking something, in terms of connection and a sense of community. I've recently been searching for some alternatives. There's Unitarian Universalists [1], who welcomes people from any faith, including atheists and agnostics. You can discuss any religion openly, and they have regular services on Sunday where you can socialize, enjoy some music, and listen to a speaker. There's also the Rotary Club [2], where people regularly meet for meals, and work to help their community. Then there's the Freemasons, but I don't think that's for me. I might like to organize a secular humanist "church" or club with regular meetings and meals. I think it would be nice to have discussions about philosophy and science, maybe watch some documentaries and talks together, and have a book club. Another random thought on the topic of isolation: St. John's runs a "caring caller" [3] service in New Zealand, where people can volunteer to call elderly people on the phone, and just have conversations with them. If I'm ever back in New Zealand, I think I would like to get involved with that. Also in New Zealand: The High Street Cohousing project [4] in Dunedin. I think it's a fantastic idea. I love the idea of a shared community space, and the sustainability. I'm seriously thinking about getting involved, or maybe I can buy one of the houses in the future. I enjoy living in Chiang Mai, and it's not too hard to meet people here. There are plenty of meetups and groups to join. I meet a lot of digital nomads who come and go, but my wife and I have a small group of friends that are living here long term. There's also a Rotary Club here that we have been thinking about joining. My wife and I have also been rewatching Gilmore Girls. We agree that it would be really nice to live somewhere like their fictional town of Stars Hollow, in Connecticut. The main reason is to be part of a close-knit community, but also because that area has distinct seasons (especially fall and winter), beautiful architecture, history, and close proximity to New York. I ended up reading quite a lot of articles and blog posts from people who want the same thing, and have visited similar towns in Connecticut. One blog post was a bit depressing [5]. They are saying that this town could never exist, because of big-box stores like Walmart who are killing many small businesses. YC has a plan to build a new city, so I hope they are thinking about these things. I think the issues of community and isolation might be more important than anything else. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism [2] https://www.rotary.org/en https://www.rotary.org/en [3] http://www.stjohn.org.nz/What-we-do/Community-programmes/Caring-Caller/ http://www.stjohn.org.nz/What-we-do/Community-programmes/Car... [4] http://highstreetcohousing.nz/ http://highstreetcohousing.nz/ [5] https://thecompletistblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/stars-hollow/ https://thecompletistblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/stars-hol...

Nomentatus 10y ago

Don't underestimate the social value of consistency - being in the same place at the same time very reliably. Then those who decide you're interesting can come back and visit again. You may have to put in a lot of hours before anything happens, but at least it can happen. Even if it's just buying a coffee and drinking it at the same place and time every day.

acd 10y ago

There is the blue zones were people are living the longest in the world. Besides eating healthy a lot of those places has a strong local community where you can connect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone People are staring down in the cell phone screens instead of talking to strangers in social environments. Plus if one is looking at the phone one is not that approachable. Apps can connect people but also disconnect humans. Time for a debate on how to use new tech in a positive manner. Even people that know each other sometime disconnect through tech for example friends going to a cafe together instead of talking using their cell phones. We are using GPS instead of asking others for directions. Robots are replacing cashiers and simple jobs at service desks.