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Lollipuff (YC W'13 - https://www.lollipuff.com https://www.lollipuff.com) was started precisely to address this counterfeit issue -- focused on high-end women's

by beambot 10y ago

Lollipuff (YC W'13 - https://www.lollipuff.com https://www.lollipuff.com) was started precisely to address this counterfeit issue -- focused on high-end women's fashion. We built out a backend that allows us to authenticate luxury goods using photos alone. It works through a combination of (1) very specific photos; (2) automated software; and (3) a trained (non-expert) authenticator. We recently expanded from being just a P2P auction service (competing with the likes of Alibaba & eBay) to offering our Authentication Tool as a service, which can compliment their sites: https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-service/ https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-service/

braythwayt 10y ago
I agree that your comment is relevant and contributes to the discussion. A disagree that complaining about downvotes is relevant, and feel it detracts from the discussion. So... Neither an up- nor down- vote from me ;-)
- beambot 10y ago
  Apologies for the kvetching; I just removed the downvote complaint. I was just peeved to see my solution-centric comment downvoted into the negatives while mere complaints were being pushed to the top.
rahimnathwani 10y ago
I didn't downvote you, but your comment is irrelevant. The claim is not that taobao has listings duping customers, who receive counterfeit items when expecting licensed ones. It's that customers are knowingly able to buy counterfeit items. In some cases, sellers of counterfeit goods in China even offer different quality options for the same product, which the original brands do not.
- beambot 10y ago
  (I removed the downvote kvetching; sorry.) Taobao listings are peer to peer (somewhat anyway; it's also partly like Amazon retailers). So it's other users that are intentionally duping buyers, not Taobao directly. It's possible (likely?) that Taobao is complicit and turning a blind eye. But it's also difficult for them to address in any meaningful way; how are they supposed to obtain the necessary expertise...? We know for a fact that other P2P marketplaces (eg. eBay) do care and have spent an insane amount of resources to combat the problem (or been litigated by brands) -- and yet they haven't been able to crack authentication at scale. Our tool addresses that problem. It is relevant... because it is part of the solution to this problem: How can you authenticate brand-name items in a resale market. (Worth noting: The brands aren't motivated to help in the resale market. They want everyone to buy new and reap 1000% markup... which is why they crack down on counterfeits.)
  - rahimnathwani 10y ago
    I don't see how Lollipuff's service, as you describe it above, is relevant to counterfeit items on taobao. If someone is selling, e.g. a copy of a particular dress, using stock photos from the original designer, for 5% of the regular price, how does your authentication service help taobao, the seller and/or potential buyers?
    - beambot 10y ago
      Our tool could be part of a solution... For example, Taobao could work with us to: (1) Require sellers to get their items authenticated, and provide a link to the authentication certificate in their listings. This would require sellers to take photographs of the actual items rather than using stock photos. (2) Train buyers to request authentication certificates from sellers before proceeding with transactions. (3) Setup a dispute process (like eBay) where buyers can get their post-purchase items authenticated and have financial recourse in the event of counterfeits. I'd be happy to speak with people at Taobao about how to setup a partnership and/or implement ways to dissuade bad sellers. But it will require concerted effort and will on the part of Taobao.
      - rhizome 10y ago
        Can you detect modified photos of authentication certificates?
      - nradov 10y ago
        What incentive would Taobao have to do any of that?
        beambot 10y ago
        To avoid the ire of the US gov't and getting press coverage in articles like this? Heh.
      - rahimnathwani 10y ago
        (2) and (3) assume the buyers are wanting to buy licensed, not counterfeit, products. This is not the situation described in the OP, nor the one I described. (1) is a non-starter as sellers sell multiple of the same product (i.e. one listing could represent 100,000 units of inventory), or the seller doesn't even have the item on hand (they acquire it from a local supply chain the day they get a customer order). Taobao isn't primarily a flea market with someone selling their own stuff. It's more like Amazon marketplace, with almost all the volume coming from professional sellers. Your service (assuming it is as you described) has value in protecting folks trying to buy or sell authentic items, but that's not the case here.
emidln 10y ago
Is there much of a market for high-end authentica luxury goods where the buyers don't have an in-person experience? I was under the impression that part of the reason for luxury goods, beyond signaling after the purchase, was the shopping experience itself.
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  For used stuff there is. You can save a ton of money buying lightly used goods. This would probably be great on a site like Grailed.
- lnanek2 10y ago
  My wife is Chinese and has intentionally bought replicas (knowingly ahead of time and even choosing the quality level) online before for shoes and jackets. If she sees a nice Chloe jacket for thousands and wants something that looks like it, she knows she can go buy a replica and wear something that looks just like it. There's some clueless people on the internet who get knowingly defrauded, but a lot of this is just preventing the sale even from two parties who know all the details. E.g. like preventing someone from selling DVD movies copied to obvious blanks.
squeaky-clean 10y ago
Not a downvoter, but I also don't see Alibaba as a "problem" this fixes. I know a few people who buy luxury fashion goods on there entirely because it's fake/replicas. If you're buying $900 boots for $90, I hope you don't believe they're real. It's like downloading something from thepiratebay and being surprised that it's not a legal means of download. It's more of a problem on Amazon or eBay, where prices are closer/equal to retail and things are falsely listed.
- beambot 10y ago
  (I removed the downvote kvetching; sorry.) I'd encourage you to look at the frontpage of Lollipuff or in the eBay fashion sections -- you can absolutely find items that retail for $900 new for purchase in a resale market for $90 used. It's sort of like going to GoodWill. If people want to buy "replicas", that's fine. In some jurisdictions it's even legally permissible to sell replicas without running afoul of laws, so long as they are marketed accordingly (though stamps & logos tend to be strongly protected). But if Taobao / Alibaba would like to sell in the US, they must make the distinction between replicas and original brands clear -- and must enforce it. That's not an easy task.
  - squeaky-clean 10y ago
    > I'd encourage you to look at the frontpage of Lollipuff or in the eBay fashion sections -- you can absolutely find items that retail for $900 new for purchase in a resale market for $90 used. It's sort of like going to GoodWill. Used, yeah of course. But you won't find them for that cheap new, which you definitely can on Alibaba (obviously not legitimate). edit: Just checked out the site. Can't seem to find anything for Men?
- chc 10y ago
  My wife has gotten genuine goods for a fraction of their initial price by purchasing old designs at less prestigious stores. While a lot of things are obviously counterfeit, it's not always easy to tell whether you've just stumbled on a great fire sale. When you're shopping globally, it's even less clear-cut, because things don't always cost the same in every country.

by beambot 10y ago

braythwayt 10y ago

I agree that your comment is relevant and contributes to the discussion. A disagree that complaining about downvotes is relevant, and feel it detracts from the discussion. So... Neither an up- nor down- vote from me ;-)

beambot 10y ago
Apologies for the kvetching; I just removed the downvote complaint. I was just peeved to see my solution-centric comment downvoted into the negatives while mere complaints were being pushed to the top.

rahimnathwani 10y ago

I didn't downvote you, but your comment is irrelevant. The claim is not that taobao has listings duping customers, who receive counterfeit items when expecting licensed ones. It's that customers are knowingly able to buy counterfeit items. In some cases, sellers of counterfeit goods in China even offer different quality options for the same product, which the original brands do not.

beambot 10y ago
(I removed the downvote kvetching; sorry.) Taobao listings are peer to peer (somewhat anyway; it's also partly like Amazon retailers). So it's other users that are intentionally duping buyers, not Taobao directly. It's possible (likely?) that Taobao is complicit and turning a blind eye. But it's also difficult for them to address in any meaningful way; how are they supposed to obtain the necessary expertise...? We know for a fact that other P2P marketplaces (eg. eBay) do care and have spent an insane amount of resources to combat the problem (or been litigated by brands) -- and yet they haven't been able to crack authentication at scale. Our tool addresses that problem. It is relevant... because it is part of the solution to this problem: How can you authenticate brand-name items in a resale market. (Worth noting: The brands aren't motivated to help in the resale market. They want everyone to buy new and reap 1000% markup... which is why they crack down on counterfeits.)
- rahimnathwani 10y ago
  I don't see how Lollipuff's service, as you describe it above, is relevant to counterfeit items on taobao. If someone is selling, e.g. a copy of a particular dress, using stock photos from the original designer, for 5% of the regular price, how does your authentication service help taobao, the seller and/or potential buyers?
  - beambot 10y ago
    Our tool could be part of a solution... For example, Taobao could work with us to: (1) Require sellers to get their items authenticated, and provide a link to the authentication certificate in their listings. This would require sellers to take photographs of the actual items rather than using stock photos. (2) Train buyers to request authentication certificates from sellers before proceeding with transactions. (3) Setup a dispute process (like eBay) where buyers can get their post-purchase items authenticated and have financial recourse in the event of counterfeits. I'd be happy to speak with people at Taobao about how to setup a partnership and/or implement ways to dissuade bad sellers. But it will require concerted effort and will on the part of Taobao.
    - rhizome 10y ago
      Can you detect modified photos of authentication certificates?
    - nradov 10y ago
      What incentive would Taobao have to do any of that?
      - beambot 10y ago
        To avoid the ire of the US gov't and getting press coverage in articles like this? Heh.
    - rahimnathwani 10y ago
      (2) and (3) assume the buyers are wanting to buy licensed, not counterfeit, products. This is not the situation described in the OP, nor the one I described. (1) is a non-starter as sellers sell multiple of the same product (i.e. one listing could represent 100,000 units of inventory), or the seller doesn't even have the item on hand (they acquire it from a local supply chain the day they get a customer order). Taobao isn't primarily a flea market with someone selling their own stuff. It's more like Amazon marketplace, with almost all the volume coming from professional sellers. Your service (assuming it is as you described) has value in protecting folks trying to buy or sell authentic items, but that's not the case here.

emidln 10y ago

Is there much of a market for high-end authentica luxury goods where the buyers don't have an in-person experience? I was under the impression that part of the reason for luxury goods, beyond signaling after the purchase, was the shopping experience itself.

squeaky-clean 10y ago
For used stuff there is. You can save a ton of money buying lightly used goods. This would probably be great on a site like Grailed.
lnanek2 10y ago
My wife is Chinese and has intentionally bought replicas (knowingly ahead of time and even choosing the quality level) online before for shoes and jackets. If she sees a nice Chloe jacket for thousands and wants something that looks like it, she knows she can go buy a replica and wear something that looks just like it. There's some clueless people on the internet who get knowingly defrauded, but a lot of this is just preventing the sale even from two parties who know all the details. E.g. like preventing someone from selling DVD movies copied to obvious blanks.

squeaky-clean 10y ago

Not a downvoter, but I also don't see Alibaba as a "problem" this fixes. I know a few people who buy luxury fashion goods on there entirely because it's fake/replicas. If you're buying $900 boots for $90, I hope you don't believe they're real. It's like downloading something from thepiratebay and being surprised that it's not a legal means of download. It's more of a problem on Amazon or eBay, where prices are closer/equal to retail and things are falsely listed.

beambot 10y ago
(I removed the downvote kvetching; sorry.) I'd encourage you to look at the frontpage of Lollipuff or in the eBay fashion sections -- you can absolutely find items that retail for $900 new for purchase in a resale market for $90 used. It's sort of like going to GoodWill. If people want to buy "replicas", that's fine. In some jurisdictions it's even legally permissible to sell replicas without running afoul of laws, so long as they are marketed accordingly (though stamps & logos tend to be strongly protected). But if Taobao / Alibaba would like to sell in the US, they must make the distinction between replicas and original brands clear -- and must enforce it. That's not an easy task.
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  > I'd encourage you to look at the frontpage of Lollipuff or in the eBay fashion sections -- you can absolutely find items that retail for $900 new for purchase in a resale market for $90 used. It's sort of like going to GoodWill. Used, yeah of course. But you won't find them for that cheap new, which you definitely can on Alibaba (obviously not legitimate). edit: Just checked out the site. Can't seem to find anything for Men?
chc 10y ago
My wife has gotten genuine goods for a fraction of their initial price by purchasing old designs at less prestigious stores. While a lot of things are obviously counterfeit, it's not always easy to tell whether you've just stumbled on a great fire sale. When you're shopping globally, it's even less clear-cut, because things don't always cost the same in every country.