5 ms·

I don't think it's fair for Apple to evade taxes even if it's legal. I don't think it's fair for the EU to claim those taxes from an American company. But I a

by ooqr 10y ago

I don't think it's fair for Apple to evade taxes even if it's legal. I don't think it's fair for the EU to claim those taxes from an American company. But I also don't want the taxes to go to a Trump administration, just to be blown on a wall. What am I supposed to feel?

szx 10y ago
The financial system does not recognize fairness as a factor. Apple is playing the game to make money for its shareholders. It would be noble of them to behave otherwise, but I certainly don't expect it.
- gtirloni 10y ago
  Small and medium-sized companies everywhere pay their taxes just fine without feeling "noble". They're not the exception, Apple and other giants are.
matwood 10y ago
Feelings should not be any part of this nor should the concept of 'fair'ness. Either Apple/Ireland followed the law or they didn't.
- vladd 10y ago
  I agree that fairness has no place when looking whether someone obeyed the law or not. Fairness however should be of interest for the people that make these laws.
  - matwood 10y ago
    Define fair. Fair for who? The problem with using fairness as any sort of qualification is that it does not work. That's how the US ended up in the current situation with a high top rate and mountains of loopholes attempting to make it fair.
- SixSigma 10y ago
  Well, Apple followed the law. But the law was changed in their favour by Luxembourg in a deal to deprive other EU countries of tax by creating sweetheart deals. Jean-Claude Juncker, the current president of the European Commission, who was prime minister of Luxembourg admitted after the “Lux Leaks” publications that the system was “not always in line with fiscal fairness” and may have breached “ethical and moral standards.” http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36662636 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36662636 The only people who suffered directly as a consequence were the leakers > Former PricewaterhouseCoopers employees Antoine Deltour and Raphael Halet received 12 and nine-month sentences respectively for leaking documents.
edblarney 10y ago
1) 'Tax evasion' is illegal - it implies you're doing something like hiding money offshore, and not declaring it. Apple is doing nothing more than not paying the taxes they are not supposed to. If you claim your 'moving expenses' on your tax form, are you 'evading taxes'? No - you're just playing by the rules. Apple basically played by the rules. Nothing they did was illegal until the EU change their laws 25 years retroactively. 2) Europe definitely has a right to tax business activity in Europe. 3) The US does have a right to also tax business overseas, but it needs to be reasonable. Today, the laws are whack and US companies are double-taxed. If they weren't all that money would be coming back. Your comment about Trump are unfortunate, I don't like him either, but he was elected. Also, the bureaucracy has not changed. But consider this: Trump is actually going to change the repatriation laws, and you'll likely see a Trillion dollars parked overseas come back to the US. A good chunk of it will go to investors as dividends, but still, even that money will circulate back into the economy, and that's not all of it. It's surprising Obama did not do this - if he made repatriation laws consistent with the rest of the world ... it could have been a big bump to the economy when the US needed it the most. Edit: to be clear (thanks to Marzan, below) 'double-taxation' is not quite the appropriate term, as US companies are given credit for taxes overseas.
- Marazan 10y ago
  US companies are not double taxed. Any corporation tax they pay in a foreign jurasdicuon is deducted from their us tax bill.
  - ChrisBland 10y ago
    I think OP is referring to places that have tax % lower than the US. Say Country A had a rate of 10%, you get the deduction of the 10% but you still owe 25% more due to the US 35% tax rate when you repatriate the $.
    - amitdeshwar 10y ago
      How is that "double taxation"?
avar 10y ago
You shouldn't feel sympathetic to the crocodile tears of legal jurisdictions like the EU who are fully capable of simply changing the rules, but instead choose to complain about individual companies following their own rules.
rattray 10y ago
I think you're supposed to feel like our current setup of democracy is failing us: 1. Governments fail to prevent evasion of taxes. 2. Governments make unfair claims on taxes when public outrage allows. 3. Trump got elected. 4. Most money spent by governments is blown. I think many people seek a "one good guy, one bad guy" storyline. I'm not sure whether that's cultural, a part of our mythology, or biological. But it's probably something to avoid.
briandear 10y ago
Evading taxes is illegal. Tax avoidance is legal and it's a fiduciary duty of corporate officers. They would actually be violation their fiduciary duties if they paid more tax than was required.
- Marazan 10y ago
  No it isn't. There is no fiduciary duty for corporate directors anywhere in the world, and certainly not anywhere in the USA or Europe, to avoid taxes. Nor is there, I wager, any duty to maximise revenue or profit or anything similar in any jurisdiction on the planet.
  - caminante 10y ago
    Here's a relevant assessment by a UChicago tax professor on this very topic (i.e. the "duty" of APPL execs to avoid taxes) [0]. tl;dr: "Tax avoidance" isn't a "fiduciary duty" per Delaware corporation law. That said, APPL execs may be subject to such standards through its corporate bylaws or through a variation in state law (CA v. DE). [0] http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2015/12/a-duty-to-minimize-taxes.html http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2015/12/a-duty-to-min...

by ooqr 10y ago

szx 10y ago

The financial system does not recognize fairness as a factor. Apple is playing the game to make money for its shareholders. It would be noble of them to behave otherwise, but I certainly don't expect it.

gtirloni 10y ago
Small and medium-sized companies everywhere pay their taxes just fine without feeling "noble". They're not the exception, Apple and other giants are.

matwood 10y ago

Feelings should not be any part of this nor should the concept of 'fair'ness. Either Apple/Ireland followed the law or they didn't.

vladd 10y ago
I agree that fairness has no place when looking whether someone obeyed the law or not. Fairness however should be of interest for the people that make these laws.
- matwood 10y ago
  Define fair. Fair for who? The problem with using fairness as any sort of qualification is that it does not work. That's how the US ended up in the current situation with a high top rate and mountains of loopholes attempting to make it fair.
SixSigma 10y ago
Well, Apple followed the law. But the law was changed in their favour by Luxembourg in a deal to deprive other EU countries of tax by creating sweetheart deals. Jean-Claude Juncker, the current president of the European Commission, who was prime minister of Luxembourg admitted after the “Lux Leaks” publications that the system was “not always in line with fiscal fairness” and may have breached “ethical and moral standards.” http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36662636 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36662636 The only people who suffered directly as a consequence were the leakers > Former PricewaterhouseCoopers employees Antoine Deltour and Raphael Halet received 12 and nine-month sentences respectively for leaking documents.

edblarney 10y ago

1) 'Tax evasion' is illegal - it implies you're doing something like hiding money offshore, and not declaring it. Apple is doing nothing more than not paying the taxes they are not supposed to. If you claim your 'moving expenses' on your tax form, are you 'evading taxes'? No - you're just playing by the rules. Apple basically played by the rules. Nothing they did was illegal until the EU change their laws 25 years retroactively. 2) Europe definitely has a right to tax business activity in Europe. 3) The US does have a right to also tax business overseas, but it needs to be reasonable. Today, the laws are whack and US companies are double-taxed. If they weren't all that money would be coming back. Your comment about Trump are unfortunate, I don't like him either, but he was elected. Also, the bureaucracy has not changed. But consider this: Trump is actually going to change the repatriation laws, and you'll likely see a Trillion dollars parked overseas come back to the US. A good chunk of it will go to investors as dividends, but still, even that money will circulate back into the economy, and that's not all of it. It's surprising Obama did not do this - if he made repatriation laws consistent with the rest of the world ... it could have been a big bump to the economy when the US needed it the most. Edit: to be clear (thanks to Marzan, below) 'double-taxation' is not quite the appropriate term, as US companies are given credit for taxes overseas.

Marazan 10y ago
US companies are not double taxed. Any corporation tax they pay in a foreign jurasdicuon is deducted from their us tax bill.
- ChrisBland 10y ago
  I think OP is referring to places that have tax % lower than the US. Say Country A had a rate of 10%, you get the deduction of the 10% but you still owe 25% more due to the US 35% tax rate when you repatriate the $.
  - amitdeshwar 10y ago
    How is that "double taxation"?

avar 10y ago

You shouldn't feel sympathetic to the crocodile tears of legal jurisdictions like the EU who are fully capable of simply changing the rules, but instead choose to complain about individual companies following their own rules.

rattray 10y ago

I think you're supposed to feel like our current setup of democracy is failing us: 1. Governments fail to prevent evasion of taxes. 2. Governments make unfair claims on taxes when public outrage allows. 3. Trump got elected. 4. Most money spent by governments is blown. I think many people seek a "one good guy, one bad guy" storyline. I'm not sure whether that's cultural, a part of our mythology, or biological. But it's probably something to avoid.

briandear 10y ago

Evading taxes is illegal. Tax avoidance is legal and it's a fiduciary duty of corporate officers. They would actually be violation their fiduciary duties if they paid more tax than was required.

Marazan 10y ago
No it isn't. There is no fiduciary duty for corporate directors anywhere in the world, and certainly not anywhere in the USA or Europe, to avoid taxes. Nor is there, I wager, any duty to maximise revenue or profit or anything similar in any jurisdiction on the planet.
- caminante 10y ago
  Here's a relevant assessment by a UChicago tax professor on this very topic (i.e. the "duty" of APPL execs to avoid taxes) [0]. tl;dr: "Tax avoidance" isn't a "fiduciary duty" per Delaware corporation law. That said, APPL execs may be subject to such standards through its corporate bylaws or through a variation in state law (CA v. DE). [0] http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2015/12/a-duty-to-minimize-taxes.html http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2015/12/a-duty-to-min...