6 ms·

I don't think that the witch trials, which were effectively a small genocide against women, are a particularly effective metaphor for refuting manifestations of

I don't think that the witch trials, which were effectively a small genocide against women, are a particularly effective metaphor for refuting manifestations of sexism.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
I suppose that would be true if you think arguments are soldiers in favor of women or against them. You think I believe I raised a +1 for men, while you think I raised a +1 for women by mentioning a time they were victims. In fact, I believe arguments are attempts to converge to truth. The fact that women were victims in 1631 has no bearing on this discussion. RoderickDay made an argument that happened to be flawed (here's a more formal argument illustrating the flaws: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence... ), and his argument paralleled the Inquisition's arguments which were flawed for the same reason. Now that his incorrect argument is rejected, we can make better arguments and approach the truth.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  "This man did a sexist thing to curry favor with a woman. This other man did a sexist thing against her. Clearly, the woman must have been lying in one of the two scenarios." You're an idiot dude. Linking to a wikipedia fallacy page lmao you're like a caricature.
  - sctb 10y ago
    You can't make personal attacks like this here! We've already asked you not to do this. Please comment civilly and substantively or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- diyorgasms 10y ago
  I think what you were trying to say in your original comment was that "positive" sexism doesn't exist. That the author was being unreasonable when she interpreted her co-worker standing up for her as sexism. I will assert that such "positive" acts can be and often are sexist. Negative actions can also be sexist. It is possible to take a sexist action while you think you're being helpful. Not all sexism is manifested in malice. Consider similar racial stereotypes like "Asians are good at math" or "black people are good at sports." You might think that someone is positive, but those beliefs are deeply rooted in racism and racial stereotypes.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    I wasn't trying to say this at all. What I was saying is simply that X and !X cannot both be evidence of a hypothesis. If X increases your confidence that Y is true, then !X must reduce your confidence. If you want to make a more complicated argument as to why these things aren't actually X and !X, do it. But RodericDay wasn't doing that.
    - smsowmya 10y ago
      There is something called benevolent sexism ...
      - bdrool 10y ago
        I am sorry to hear you experienced that. For those who doubt it: yes "benevolent" sexism (or racism) is real, unfortunately. There are many ways it can manifest itself, but what it always boils down to is someone with the proverbial "good intentions" who decides to treat someone differently, even in a way they think of as positive, for no other reason than because of their sex (or race). It can be particularly poisonous because once you call someone out for being different, even if it is in a way that you believe to be beneficial, it highlights to everyone around them that they are different, which can make them a target. The best solution is to always strive to treat everyone equally. People are not perfect, so there will be mistakes, but that should nevertheless always be the goal.

I don't think that the witch trials, which were effectively a small genocide against women, are a particularly effective metaphor for refuting manifestations of sexism.

yummyfajitas 10y ago

I suppose that would be true if you think arguments are soldiers in favor of women or against them. You think I believe I raised a +1 for men, while you think I raised a +1 for women by mentioning a time they were victims. In fact, I believe arguments are attempts to converge to truth. The fact that women were victims in 1631 has no bearing on this discussion. RoderickDay made an argument that happened to be flawed (here's a more formal argument illustrating the flaws: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence... ), and his argument paralleled the Inquisition's arguments which were flawed for the same reason. Now that his incorrect argument is rejected, we can make better arguments and approach the truth.

RodericDay 10y ago
"This man did a sexist thing to curry favor with a woman. This other man did a sexist thing against her. Clearly, the woman must have been lying in one of the two scenarios." You're an idiot dude. Linking to a wikipedia fallacy page lmao you're like a caricature.
- sctb 10y ago
  You can't make personal attacks like this here! We've already asked you not to do this. Please comment civilly and substantively or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
diyorgasms 10y ago
I think what you were trying to say in your original comment was that "positive" sexism doesn't exist. That the author was being unreasonable when she interpreted her co-worker standing up for her as sexism. I will assert that such "positive" acts can be and often are sexist. Negative actions can also be sexist. It is possible to take a sexist action while you think you're being helpful. Not all sexism is manifested in malice. Consider similar racial stereotypes like "Asians are good at math" or "black people are good at sports." You might think that someone is positive, but those beliefs are deeply rooted in racism and racial stereotypes.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I wasn't trying to say this at all. What I was saying is simply that X and !X cannot both be evidence of a hypothesis. If X increases your confidence that Y is true, then !X must reduce your confidence. If you want to make a more complicated argument as to why these things aren't actually X and !X, do it. But RodericDay wasn't doing that.
  - smsowmya 10y ago
    There is something called benevolent sexism ...
    - bdrool 10y ago
      I am sorry to hear you experienced that. For those who doubt it: yes "benevolent" sexism (or racism) is real, unfortunately. There are many ways it can manifest itself, but what it always boils down to is someone with the proverbial "good intentions" who decides to treat someone differently, even in a way they think of as positive, for no other reason than because of their sex (or race). It can be particularly poisonous because once you call someone out for being different, even if it is in a way that you believe to be beneficial, it highlights to everyone around them that they are different, which can make them a target. The best solution is to always strive to treat everyone equally. People are not perfect, so there will be mistakes, but that should nevertheless always be the goal.